Talk:Anders Chydenius

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[edit] Historical revisionism?

The article uses modern concepts like anarcho-capitalism, night watchman state, and globalisation in context of a 18th century thinker. What are the scholarly works that discuss similarities between Chydenius's classical liberalism and anarchocapitalism, supporting the historical revisionism in the article? Or is this alleged similarity of ideas speculation/original research by some Wikipedia author? jni 07:56, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Chydenius proposed that the crown would not interfere in Lapland in any other way than providing a judge. Lapland was then very poor, and he thought that in freedom it would prosper. Of course, it may be that he wanted to turn the whole Sweden a nightwatchman state but knew that it would be politically unacceptable, whereas he could use the poorness of Lapland as an excuse, which would then make Lapland a good example for the other parts of the country. Since we can never know this, the only fact is what he proposed and the open motives he gave.

[edit] Chydenius was also an active politician

He represented Ostrobothnia in the Swedish Estates and successfully pushed for free trade and abolition of town priviledges. But if I remember correctly, Chydenius lost personal support due to very radical ideas outside the sphere of trade politics regarding human rights, freedom of speech, etc. To name Chydenius an anarchist or capitalist is however straight forward possible. Many modern ideologies can trace their origins in Chydenius original ideas and none of them can claim him as their own.

Chydenius was certainly not anarchist. Chydenius was economically and socially liberal during the 18th century which admired classical absolut order in both economics and social life. This combined with his activity in politics led him to confrontation with the established society in wide variety of fields. This is not a sign of anarchism, but merely resebles the relationship anarchist has with any form of society, liberal as well as coservative.

User:84.239.128.9 10:34, 18 Jan 2005

It is possible that Chydenius was a minarchist (not anarchist/anarcho-capitalist), at least very close (hence "economically and socially liberal"), but he seemed to be motivated by the good of the poor much more than the other politicians of his time. Then almost any regulation was against the poor and freedom would have been good for the poor. Of course, in the long run the same may or may not be true today but it is not as obvius.

[edit] Finnish?

It is said in the article that Chydenius was Finnish. But as far as I know, he lived whole his life in Sweden and he was of Swedish ethinicity. So why Finnish? /Aaker

Chydenius lived in Finland - Finland was then a part of Sweden. Unless we should categorise all the people of Finland as Swedes until 1809 - and those från 19th century, should they be called Russians? it seems much more reasonable to say he was Finnish. / Habj 04:22, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Chydenius was born to Swedish parents in Sweden, and grew up there. He then studied in another part of Sweden, Åbo, which is now a part of Finland. He was no doubt Swedish. I will edit the categories. http://www.liberalismen.com/chydenius.shtml —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Redeem (talk • contribs) 13:20, 28 April 2006.

According to that text (as well as other sources), he grew up in current Finland (Ostrobothnia) which then was a part of Sweden. It says nothing about where his parents were from. Nationalencyklopedin, an encyclopedia not only in Swedish language but initiated by a Swedish governmental committee, mentions him as "finländsk" (Finnish). Of course he was an important figure of Sweden at the time, but it makes more sense to categorise him as Finnish - or possibly double categorise him, if that is normal practise? I also added the category "Finland-Swedes" which is a bit troublesome for people who were Swedish subjects all their lives but still in this case it makes sense (grewing up in Österbotten there is not need to assume anything else than that he was a true native Swedish speaker). // Habj 01:42, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Here is the record of his birth: http://www.jap-publisher.com/galleria/antti.html

You will note that it gives his birthplace as Sotkamo, (I edited the article to reflect thefact). Sotkamo is currently Finland, and then was Sweden. In the (to my mind) insubstantial question of what category tags apply, I won't stick an oar in. -- Cimon avaro; on a pogostick. 04:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

The comment below was posted on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biography#Nationality

Is there a convention for classifying nationality of subjects of biographies? The specific case I refer to is Anders Chydenius (see the talk page for a discussion). Chydenius was born in what is now part of Finland when Finland did not exist as an independent country (it was part of Sweden). His mother tongue was (almost certainly) Swedish, so he has been put in Category:Finland-Swedes. Although this is uncontroversial, there is disagreement over whether he should be classified as a Finnish politician, priest, economist etc. or as a Swedish one. I tried to find a guide to this on the Manual of Style and this page but there doesn't seem to be any. Perhaps it would be a good idea to have a guide, because such questions must come up all the time on historical biographies. Tamino 05:44, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Copied by Tamino 05:46, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Language: He grew up in a Swedish-speaking home [1] so the Finland-Swede category should be uncontroversial.

Ancestry: The Chydenius family is from Egentliga Finland (Finland Proper?) [2] [3], and Anders' mother Hedvig nee Hornaeus, was born in Houtskär in Finland [4].

I agree there must be many similar cases when it comes to defining nationality of historic people. If he should not be called Finnish, no one who lived before 1917 could be called Finnish which would be very strange... the article could well have a section explaining his position in Sweden and how he although Finnish can be "the father of Swedish liberalism" , we can not expect all readers to understand that. // Habj 10:37, 26 May 2006 (UTC)