Talk:Double-barrelled name

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Contents 1 The Article Title 2 Associated circumstances 2.1 Particularly associated? 2.2 Feminism? 2.3 In French 3 Notables 3.1 In Holland 4 Going to Extremes 5 Scope of the term 6 Sources and accuracy of data

[edit] The Article Title

Isn't the term double-barrelled name slang? Shouldn't this article be moved to hyphenated name? Michael Hardy 17:44, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

No, it's not slang, and not all double barrelled names are hyphenated (see article). Don't move. Zeimusu 14:20, 2004 Sep 4 (UTC)

(Why shouldn't i move? Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see that you've creeped me out? [wink])
--Jerzy•t 16:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

• I saw this article's title two years ago, and immediately understood it, as did my usage expert just now. But neither of us remembers seeing it before, and i (an inveterate terminology collector and in particular a naming-convention buff) i have definitely not seen it elsewhere since became aware of it.

It has the virtue of being easily understood at least by Yanks, but the problem of being not widely known, and being a metaphor drawn from the lore of an unrelated field that is not necessarily well-understood outside the gun-crazy USA.

IMO we need verification that this is "not slang".
--Jerzy•t 16:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Interestingly, my dictionary (Readers' Digest Universal - not the OED but reliable enough as a first guide) describes the application of "double-barrelled" to surnames as a British usage, so you may be on the wrong track assuming it to be a US thing. More to the point, the question of how easily understood this term is only really arises if there is a reasonable alternative. I have never heard any other term that would cover double-barrelled surnames except for "hyphenated", which is just wrong, as explained above. Mattley ^(Chattley) 17:40, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I finally did a search instead of just chattering, hoping to find out what genealogists call them. While IMO it still leaves the slang question in doubt, What's in a Name? : HULLAND says that

1. The usage goes back at least to 1848 (at least with contemptuous intent).
2. The practice only to about 1700.
3. Curiously, double-barrelled firearms were so called starting about that time.
4. It originated when potential heirs fulfilled the provision of wills whose creators intended to perpetuate their respective surnames, even if their male line of descent died out.

No indication though of what they were called in print before 1848, nor how old the author's term "doubled forms" is. I think all of this is ground the article should cover; it's a pretty casual source to be cited alone as verification, but justifies a search for other sources. (And BTW, i guess it stands proven that the double-barreled shotgun is well known to the gun-crazy British upper class, which i should have anticipated since it's a hunting weapon. [blush])
--Jerzy•t 02:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Associated circumstances

[edit] Particularly associated?

They are particularly associated with English-speaking countries.

Is this true? They certainly aren't exclusive to English-speaking countries, but are they even particularly associated with English-speaking countries? What countries do not have double-barrelled names, for example? —Gabbe 10:40, Mar 23, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Feminism?

I know many families who in recent years have adopted double-barrelled names from a concern with feminist issues. Would a paragraph on this usage be out of place? Philthecow 03:50, Mar 29, 2005 (UTC)

No, madam, I do not think that it would be, but it should not be overly emphasised. --Anglius 03:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] In French

Apparently arbritrary double-barelled names have been legalised in France recently. The practice is to use a double-hyphen "--" , (not just a long hyphen!!), to distinguish from the historic double-barelled names that were already in use. ! Morwen - Talk 11:35, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Sir, (as for the aristocratic surnames) if both of the original surnames that one of them is comprised of begin with de, does the double-barrelled surname have both them(e.g. de Gaulle-de Noialles)? --Anglius 03:52, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Notables

Article says: Notable persons with unhyphenated double-barrelled names include two former British Prime Ministers, David Lloyd George and Andrew Bonar Law, and the composer Ralph Vaughan Williams.

Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill should be included! He is an agnatic Spencer, with Churchill added after a Spencer married the daughter of heirless Duke of Marlborough. --jamesdowallen at gmail

Well not really as for Winston's branch of the family (starting with his father) the given surname was just "Churchill". "Spencer Churchill" has appeared on some books but this was mainly Winston the Brit wishing to distinguish himself from "Winston Churchill the American". Really the person should be widely known by the double-barrelled name to be mentioned.

And was "Bonar Law" a double barrelled surname or not? His son, a middle ranking politician in later decades, appears to have always been called "Richard Law". Timrollpickering 15:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] In Holland

Gentlemen, other than the Dutch Royal Family's surname, are there Dutch double-barrelled surnames that are hyphenated?--Anglius 21:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I have the impression the answer is yes, but i am unsure whether i am just thinking of Per Brinch Hansen (a Dane whom i had confused in my mind with the Dutchman Edsgar Dijkstra), or whether i had noticed a real Dutch example, which i put together with PBH making (supposedly) two Dutch examples.
--Jerzy•t 14:45, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

When this query bears fruit, don't say "Holland", which is a region of the Netherlands.
--Jerzy•t 16:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate your explanation and advice, hr.--Anglius

[edit] Going to Extremes

Are there any extremely long surnames anywhere in the world (for instance, van Oranje-Nassau-Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov en Mecklenburg-Schwerin aan Lippe-Biesterfeild van Pruisen)?--Anglius 04:31, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Holstein-Gottorp, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Lippe-Biesterfeld, etc, are properly territorial designations. The others are house names. As for surnames, I have only encountered up to triple-barrelled surnames, although there are names created for the sake of length. Charles 21:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I thank you, sir, but I added (and attempted to Dutchify) those house-names and designations together to bestow an example.--Anglius 00:19, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Scope of the term

_ _ While i said "double-barrelled name" is immediately understandable (at least to me and some others), the article's examples do not cover the Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking convention that is part of the natural understanding of the term. I describe this convention as a single-generation-long version, where in every generation

• the children have the first half of their father's d-b'd surname, followed by first half of their maternal grandfather's d-b'd surname, but
• the husband's surname is not affected by marriage, and
• (i assume) the wife either takes the husband's full surname or retains her own.
  

_ _ I also doubt the distinction is adequately made between these forms and the other forms of what i call (in LoPbN hdgs) a compound surname: multi-word surnames where some words (usually all but one) are prepositions, articles, or a few other modifying words including St. or Saint (in English) (and perhaps Mt., Mount, or Mont, as Montcalm, Mountbatten, and Montjoy hint at).
--Jerzy•t 16:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources and accuracy of data

Well, the page is already flagged not citing sources, and that truth is rife. But I'm here to comment on a few instaces where I'm certain the infrmation is wrong. Sasha Baron Cohen isn't a Double Barrelled name, as far as I'm aware. I'm of the understanding his middle name is Baron, and I can't be certain, but i believe others included where it states "non-hyphenated names" are also middle names or pseudonyms, in which case, a pseudonym is either and alias or a language differentiated name. If the title is simply different due to a language barrier, then it may well be considered double barrel (unless, of course, it's an Eastern name, in hich case the matter may vary). The context does howwever differ if the name is a fictitious alias or a "user elected" alias, whereby a name was added as a result of simple personal prefererence. In these cases, the person may still be considered double barrelled, however it is to that person's own discretion and not to the discretion of people deliberating on the Internet.

In short, I think Cohen should be removed along with anyone else whose names are not accurately described as being "Double Barrelled".

--lincalinca 12:05, 4 November 2006 (UTC)!!?!?

You need to read the WP bio, and if you don't trust your colleagues who wrote it, the second 'graph of one of its refs.
--Jerzy•t 02:07, 18 November 2006 (UTC)