Talk:George W. Bush

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	To-do list for George W. Bush:	edit - history - watch - refresh
	By taking the policies on WP:BLP seriously. Half of the article should be deleted immediately, as it is all unsourced material. As a start, I would recommend {{fact}}-tagging all unsourced claims HJ 12:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC) As a public figure, Bush is not subject to the same level of protection for libel by the US. We should not make unverified claims, but such claims do not pose the same risk as on non-public figure's biography. St.isaac 01:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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Archives

2002 - 2003  1, 2, 3 2004  4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 2005  20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38 2006  39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50

Contents 1 Vague/unsupported statements 2 Stem Cell Issue 3 Applicability of "George Bush, Jr. 4 Bush and God 5 Dubious redirecting 6 Photos 7 :P 8 confusing 9 Summary 10 George W. Bush 2004 or 2000 campaign 11 Video 12 Criticism and public perception 13 IQ 14 National Debt under Bush Administration 15 Torture 16 Illiterate? 17 Introduction 18 Does the article really need two foreign policy sections? 19 npov Afghanistan 20 2nd Term - Foreign Policy 21 signing statements? 22 Bush considers changing tactics in Iraq 23 Tet Offensive comment 24 Kyoto 25 guard service footnote questionable 26 This is why 27 Bin Laden 28 Trivia section 29 What new possible data if any 30 Better Picture for Economic Policy 31 Neutrality 32 FA? 33 Terminology to address 1st and 2nd elections 34 Archive 35 Large gap of space 36 George Washington Bush 37 Personality 38 Unlocked? 39 Infobox - Religion 40 Infobox- date of birth 41 Cabinet 42 President Waffle 43 Drug Use? 44 Donald Rumsfeld 45 Trivia 46 Opening 47 "War President" restored 48 Iraq War section 49 Economic Policy 50 Will Ferrell and Will Forte, and maybe Will Sasso

[edit] Vague/unsupported statements

The following statement should not be in an encyclopedia. It is a vague accusation from a different political party: "Throughout his political career, Bush has been criticized over his induction and period of service. Critics allege that Bush was favorably treated due to his father's political standing, and that he was irregular in attendance". Is this an article on George W Bush, or his critics. If it is about what his critics think, then shame on wikipedia.

This "Jesus Day" blurb here is flat out wrong. That was an stunt which went completely unnoticed (and unnoted) by Texans. It was not a "popular measure" ... I can guarantee you that 99% of Texans have never heard of it. "Jesus Day" only appeared on Bush's website, and was only done along with about 25 other state governors who all declared "Jesus Day" on the same day! This is not something that is specific to Texas, and it was not something Bush invented. A simple googling of "Jesus Day" will provide the truth. Delete this from here.

Regarding social security, it's "Third rail" of politics, not "fifth rail" (the third rail being the electrical one that will kill you if you touch it), please someone with authority change it. Is this meant to be some kind of a joke on bush always getting proverbs wrong? If so it's funny but doesn't belong in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.129.48.84 (talk • contribs) .

Done, thanks for pointing it out! -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 04:39, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

This statement makes me uncomfortable, as it asserts causality without an authoritative source (I could see it being backed up by survey results with many answering "Why do you support the president?" with "His response to 9/11"; that said, I'd still be more comfortable with it reading along the lines of "Surveys taken soon after the attacks showed a marked increase in his approval ratings, with a majority supporting his response to the 9/11 attacks." or something).

• "His response to 9/11 led to an immediate surge in his popularity."

---Knoepfle 21:01, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm doing a run-through of the article for any statements that look like they need some citation. I've decided that I'll note them here first rather than simply deleting them so that the person(s) who put them in the article have a chance to provide sources for them. (Also a few other statements I have issues with.)

• "Bush was an entrepreneur in the oil industry in Texas..." (Intro) - It's common knowledge by now that he was involved in the oil industry in some way, but the problem here is with the term "entrepreneur." It has very positive connotations in American society, so we should hesitate to apply it to him without some verification that it's valid. Personally, I would only use the term if the person it referred to innovated a new, successful business, which is definitely not the case here.
• "George W. Bush is the first president to have run a marathon. Before running for governor of Texas he completed the 1993 Houston Marathon in 3:44:52 for a pace of about 8:36/mile. He had been running since he was 26 and, before taking office, ran 15 to 30 miles a week." (Early Life) - Need a source for this

See http://www.runnersworld.com/footnotes/gwbush/racingrecord.html for Runners World listing of his races. See also "20 Questions for President George W. Bush: A Running Conversation by Bob Wischnia & Paul Carrozza" at http://www.runnersworld.com/footnotes/gwbush/20questions.html which has the following Q and A with Bush:

Q "I know you ran a marathon in Houston in 1993. What are your recollections from that?

A"I was distraught after my dad was defeated in 1992 so I decided I was going to set a little project for myself. I wanted to run the White Rock Marathon in Dallas so I began training intensely for it. I gave myself a month to train for it and pushed myself incredibly hard as this after-election therapy. But I got sick and it was really a foolish attempt on my part.

Q"It takes a lot longer than a month to get ready for a marathon."

A"Dr. Ken Cooper of the Cooper Clinic told me the same thing. So I set my sights on Houston which gave me some more time to train. I ran it in 3:44. I ran the first mile in 8 _ minutes and the last mile in 8 _ minutes. It was one of the great experiences of my life."Edison 18:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you; that citation has been added. ---DrLeebot 20:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• "Although Bush was criticized for violating the constitutional separation of church and state ("Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."), his initiative was popular with most people across the state, especially religious and social conservatives." (Governor of Texas) - Fixed up some POV issues in this, but both parts of the statement will still need sourcing. I'm sure there's something out there for the first part, just have to find it. Not so sure about the second part.
• "As one of the most popular governors in the nation..." (2000 Presidential election) - Unless we can source this, it's blatantly POV.
• "While stressing his successful record as governor of Texas, Bush's campaign attacked the Democratic nominee, incumbent Vice President Al Gore, over gun control and taxation. Bush criticized the Kyoto Protocol, championed by Gore, citing the decline of the industries in the midwestern states, such as West Virginia, and resulting economic hardships." (and similar staments) (2000 Presidential election) - Is it NPOV to talk about what his campaign claims were without mentioning his opponents' claims were?
• "On December 9, in the Bush v. Gore case, the U.S. Supreme Court stopped the statewide hand recount. The machine recount showed that Bush had won the Florida vote, giving him 271 electoral votes to Gore's 266; Bush carried 30 of the 50 states." (2000 Presidential election) We should mention the claims or critics here that the court was overstepping its power in doing this. Just need a good source for it.

Isn't that covered in the 2000 Controversy sections? Dubc0724 15:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It's covered in the controversy section of the main article on the election, yes, but it seems to me that this excerpt does an exceedingly poor job at showing just how much controversy there was. All it really says in this regard is, "The vote count, which favored Bush in preliminary tallies, was contested over allegations of irregularities in the voting and tabulation processes." Compare this to the discussion of Hayes' election in his article, where the controversy is discussed in depth. ---DrLeebot 20:42, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, there's an entire article for 2000, so one would assume it's covered. (And no, I didn't "need" that many indents - I was simply trying to make sure my edit stood out from your comments, rather than making it appear as if I was editing your comments. Didn't realize it was such a big deal.) Dubc0724 20:58, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also an entire article on the 1876 election, and yet the controversy is still discussed in Hayes' article. (And on the indenting, a single indent more that the previous is preferred, as any more makes the comments run into the side of the page quite quickly. An alternative style is for each new person to use one more indent than the last, and for each to keep their own number of indents in each category. I tend not to do this, as it seems to break up the flow of conversation.) ---DrLeebot 21:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• "President George W. Bush was regarded by his political opponents and many in the media as lacking a popular mandate, having lost the popular vote." (First term) - Needs source
• "Bush's domestic agenda carried forward themes of increased responsibility for performance from his days as Texas governor, and he worked hard to lobby the adoption of the No Child Left Behind Act, with Democratic Senator Ted Kennedy as chief sponsor. The legislation aims to close the achievement gap, measures student performance, provides options to parents with students in low-performing schools, and targets more federal funding to low-income schools." (First term) - Needs cite, plus we should mention the extreme criticism of NCLB (basically, that it absolutely fails to accomplish its stated goals).
• "Bush is a supporter of stem cell research..." (First term) - Needs a cite if we're going to keep it saying that he supports the research. Some critics have claimed that his actions in banning research from stem-cells taken from embryos are (or will be) almost completely curbing research ability.

Don't have time to look any more at the moment; I'll finish this off a bit later. ---DrLeebot 14:28, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, continuing now:

• "Arguably, cuts were distributed disproportionately to higher income taxpayers through a decrease in marginal rates, but the change in marginal rates was greater for those of lower income, resulting in an income tax structure that was more progressive overall." (First Term) - Will definitely need a good cite if you want to leave it saying this made the tax more progressive. The whole thing the cut did was actually quite complicated, and this was a trick to make it look like it was more progressive. In the end, people at the low end ended up paying just as much (or close to) as before, but it was in different types of taxes plus they lost a lot of benefits.
• "Bush's imposition of a tariff on imported steel and on Canadian softwood lumber was controversial in light of his advocacy of free market policies in other areas; this attracted criticism both from his fellow conservatives and from nations affected. The steel tariff was later rescinded under pressure from the World Trade Organization. A negotiated settlement to the softwood lumber dispute was reached in April 2006, and the historic seven-year deal was finalized on July 1, 2006." (First term) - Probably true, but still needs a cite.
• "Public perceptions of Bush were reputedly of lacking interest in foreign affairs. However, the Bush Administration implemented major changes in U.S. foreign policy by withdrawing its participation in the 1998 Kyoto Protocol (although in 1998 the Senate vote to participate in the treaty was 0 for and 95 against) and the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with Russia, in order to pursue national missile defense." (First term) - Blatantly POV, but I can't think of a good way to rework it right now that retains the information.

Okay, I'm not done going through this, but I think that's enough for us to work on for the time being. ---DrLeebot 20:59, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Good work, DrLeebot. Articles can only become better when attention to detail is paid as it pertains to NPOV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 21:00, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted this: "The 9/11 Commission report concluded that Saddam's government was actively attempting to acquire technology that would allow Iraq to produce WMD as soon as U.N. sanctions were lifted.[44]" The only places in the Commission Report where Hussein is mentioned in connection with WMD are:

• 351: "A Defense Dept. paper...argued that... al Qaeda and Iraq posed a strategic threat to the United States. Iraq's long-standing involvement in terrorism was cited, along with its interest in weapons of mass destruction" [no further discussion]

• 358: "We believe American and international public opinion [re: war on terror / war in Iraq] might have been different--and so might the range of options for a president--had they been informed of these details [about who Bin Laden was, how he ran his organization, etc.]. Recent examples of such debates include calls to arms against such threats as Serbian ethnic cleansing, biological attacks, Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, global climate change, and the HIV/AIDS epidemic."

• 351: "...the memo said...there was no confirmed reporting on Saddam cooperating with Bin Ladin on unconventional weapons."

The following is ambiguous--it's the one place where Hussein is mentioned in connection with UN inspections (not sanctions exactly) and it does allude, although very obliquely, to pursuit of WMD technology:

• p 136: "[Clinton] was facing the possibility of major combat operations against Iraq. Since 1996, the UN inspections regime had been increasingly obstructed by Saddam Hussein. The United States was threatening to attack unless unfettered inspections could resume." [thus operation Desert Fox]

The only place where Iraq is mentioned in regard to sanctions per se is P. 66, in a passage about how Bin Laden "spoke of the suffering of the Iraqi people as a result of sanctions imposed after the Gulf War." Cyrusc 00:54, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

That's the right call. I have been reading the 9/11 commission report and agree with this deletion. Thanks for the thorough explanation of the change...The fact that the footnote referenced no particular passage of a 500+ page report was one indication that it was incorrect.Benzocane 01:22, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

"On 28 August 2006 Congress approved bill that makes President detainee interrogation program legal.[63] The bill was needed after Supreme Court decided in June that the program is illegal.[63] It was second time President tried to approve it through Congress. [63] The bill is considered important for the Republican party election program in the coming election.[63]" How in the fart is this statement NPOV? "The bill was needed...." "The bill is considered important.." I could just as equally say.."The bill is considered treasonous" The manner in which the information is presented is dishonest as well, because there is no way to corrently and honestly validate these statements. The level of "need" for any idea,program,product,noun is by definition a subjective statement. Who says this bill is needed? The Administration? The supporters of the President's Program? I'm not comfortable adding the presumed person or persons whom believe "This bill is needed" and "This bill is important". I've not edited many contentious articles. Is burden on me, to fully disqualify or fully qualify these statements, or is the burden on the adding contributor to support their contributions? That is, is fully removing these statements acceptable, or is it vandalism?Jotorious 13:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stem Cell Issue

In the domestic policies section, it is mentioned that using existing stem cell lines is "obviating the need to destroy embryos." This wording should be changed, because it implies something that is false. Existing stem cells lines are outdated and are very limited in their potential for research. Thus, they only "obviate" the need to destroy embryos in a legal sense. In practical science, new stem cells are created and destroyed without federal support because new cells are needed for sufficient progress to be made. 70.105.49.78 01:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)Ian Burnet, 8/16/0670.105.49.78 01:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think either of use are qualified to make that call, inserting your own POV is called origional research, it is frowned up[on here, until then, let's just leave it to the experts. And the experts in this case, would rather not destroy embryos for no reason.--RCT 01:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

• I don't see any citation after the paragraph in question, meaning that too must be POV and original research by your definition. And I don't recall ever hearing any expert claim it has obviated the need to destroy embryos. I agree that the wording needs to be changed, at least so it doesn't state it in a matter-of-fact manner. i.e. "proponents claim it will obviate the need to destroy embryos" mbc362 11:18, 4 October 2006

I made some changes to the stem cell paragraph. The opening claim of a “total ban” on research during “the latter years of the Clinton administration,” was misleading, not to say false. A rider on legislation signed in 1995 by President Clinton, the Dickey Amendment prohibited federal funding of any research that involved the creation or destruction of human embryos. Shortly after Dr. James A. Thompson first isolated human ES cells in 1998, the National Institutes of Health obtained legal counsel from the Department of Health and Human Services that said ES research was legal so long as the ES cells were derived using private funds. On Aug. 25, 2000 with President Clinton’s full support, NIH released guidelines for federal funding of ES research and opened the door for the first ES research grant applications.^[1]. The “executive order” referred to in the entry did not “lift a ban”; what President Bush did on Aug. 9, 2001 was backpedal slightly on his intial, strongly oppositional statements about ES research. He announced that he would allow federally funded research to go forward, provided that the only cells used were from existing cell lines. I also revised the section to give a more accurate portrayal of the President’s policy on stem cell research, as well as an indication of the surrounding controversy. The domestic ES research debate has two sides: those who want to expand research, and those who want to restrict it. It is simply deceptive for WP to portray President Bush as motivated to remove Clinton-era restrictions on the research, and it seems to me that only through willful omission of information can we discuss the issue as though it has not all along been characterized by passionate opposition and debate. Bottom line is that the significance of President Bush’s role in the ES cell struggle is to stay true to his staunchly pro-life philosophy, and in general this means opposing expansion of research. Cyrusc 17:10, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

1. ^ AAAS policy brief

• I'd like to commend the recent edit for introducing more neutral language, in addition to so many helpful references. Any suggestion that President Bush's stance regarding stem cell legislation is a position merely staked out in contrast to that of the Clinton White House misses the mark and deserves revision. As the editor rightly contends, President Bush's position on the stem cell debate is motivated by firmly held philosophical commitments. --Jimmyhogg 04:42, 9 October 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Applicability of "George Bush, Jr.

The intro is correct in saying that he is not George Bush, Jr., but gives an incorrect reason. The 41st President, alhough named in full (for his grandfather) George Herbert Walker Bush, he has always used the name "George Bush." When he became president, critics fell into the habit of using all of his names, perhaps to exploit the common belief that more than three names suggests aloof aristocracy. Barbara Bush once objected to this. noting tartly "He has only two initials on his briefcase." I'm too new to be allowed to edit this article, but I suggest it would be more accurate if "Since his father goes by George H. W. Bush, this is not applicable" read "Since his father's full name is George Herbert Walker Bush, this is incorrect." I license this suggestion to any empowered editor who thinks it an improvement. Samhook 15:17, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever the reason, I don't think this information necessarily belongs in the (already too long) introduction. I have moved it to "Early life." --ElKevbo 22:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Typically, when the term "Junior" is used it is between a father and son with identical names - These two have different full names. I believe that if the son's name was George Herbert Walker Bush, he would be called George Herbert Walker Bush, Jr. (or simply George H.W. Bush, Jr.) The Incredible Moo 09:26, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

George Walker Bush II is the appropriate title. He is the 2nd George Bush. Whether he has 10 middle names he is still the Second George. Junior is less acceptable. When someone is the 1st the roman numeral is by default left out. There has never been a "King John Junior" or "Pope John Junior". Givin that this President is the most powerful man on Earth it is fitting that President "George Walker Bush II" is his complete appropriate complete title.

This article's title is the name of the son of George H.W. Bush. He is called George W. Bush. There for, he is NOT George W. Bush, jr. --Yancyfry jr 18:17, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

He is not George Walker Bush II for the same reason he is not George Walker Bush, Jr: he does not have the same name as his father. As for "Pope John Junior," I'll let someone else explain that one to you. PacificBoy 23:00, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bush and God

There was a Newsweek cover in 2003 "Bush and God", and in 2005 there was this story of Bush claiming that he was on a mission by God to fight terrorists in Afghanistan and end tyranny in Iraq. Anyway GWB did use religion to an extraordinary degree in his political carreer. Shouldn't there be a section in the article discussing this? Dianelos 23:49, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Studies have shown that Bill Clinton invoked God and Jesus far more often during his presidency than Bush has. Do you really want to go there? And did you actually read the article you linked? "The White House dismissed as “absurd” the remarks attributed to Bush..."--Aaron 01:25, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Aaron, would you mind citing your source(s) for that first statement? Duke53 | ^Talk 01:28, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's a link to a copy of an article written by Dr. Paul Kengor, Ph.D.[1]; it's not the original study, but an article he wrote about the study, reproduced on a site I haven't heard of before. I've seen others, but this study is the one that I remember reading previously (not this article; the actual study.....I know it's available online somewhere). If somebody happens to find the actual study, link it here. ​​​​AuburnPilot​​​​^Talk 01:49, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Well I too think that Bill Clinton was a religious person and that his faith played a role in his policies (maybe to try to help the downtrodden?), and I think that WP's page on Clinton's should discuss this. As for the article I linked above of course the White House spokesman would try to dismiss this particular piece of information (it was a private conversation and it makes GWB appear as a religious nutcase). Still, the story has the ring of truth in it. Why should the alleged witness of Bush's words, Nabil Shaath, claim Bush told him these things if it weren't true? Also observe that Shaath himself later tried to soften the story's impact. Finally according to this BBC story Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, was also present in that meeting and confirmed part of Shaath’s words. Now it seems that later both men understood this was working against their cause and tried some damage control; see here. Anyway, I really think that GWB's faith helps explain a lot of his policies and general stance - as well as his political success - and that a section discussing these issues would improve the article's quality, but if this article's editors think that for some reason these issues are not noteworthy I won’t press the matter. This was just a suggestion. Dianelos 09:47, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious redirecting

I just wanted to make you guys know that Jiberole has redirected the following articles to this article:

1. Worst President
2. Worst US President (this has been deleted)
3. Worst United States President (this has been deleted)
4. Worst president ever

Could someone undo this and stop the user. Gdo01 02:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

It seems several people took notice. They've been speedy deleted. ​​​​AuburnPilot​​​​^Talk 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks AuburnPilot for fixing this. Gdo01 02:53, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

This seems unfair. It's not as though these alterations were to the George Bush page itself, and many people are enormously upset about the damage Bush has done not only to America, but to the rest of the world. In my opinion, as insignificant as it might be, no harm was being done by those links. As I say, nothing was being done to the Bush page itself so the intervention of non-fact into an unopinionated article is not an issue. In fact nobody would notice those links at all unless they were searching for "worst president" etc and why shouldn't they be permitted a chuckle? Just to let you know I'm not the person who set those links up, I'm just expressing my opinion.

The user who created all these redirects from unimaginable typos should be contacted and warned. (Example below) Ruff ^{Bark away!}02:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for experimenting with Wikipedia. Your test worked, and it has been reverted or removed. Please use the sandbox for any other tests you want to do. Take a look at the welcome page if you would like to learn more about contributing to our encyclopedia.

[edit] Photos

Okay, call me a malcontent, but all the pictures of the president are, well, happy pictures of the president, doing happy things, looking presidential, all very posed and whatnot ("the President visits Mexico, with other very pale foreigners ..."). there's the one nasty shot of a foreign newspaper taking a swipe at him, but that's about it. would it be asking too much to have some, I dunno, Americans who don't look too happy interacting with their president? I might make him look more like the leader of an (actual, functioning) democracy, and less like Big Brother. Hail Oceania! If I found one, might I include it without too much backlash? Blondlieut 22:13, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I think the most important thing would be to make sure the photos are appropriate for both the article and the section in which they are placed. But the general objection you have raised and the proposed solution both make sense to me. Go for it! --ElKevbo 22:18, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

And how many pictures like that do we have on the Bill Clinton page? Shouldn't we be more worried about the relevance and informational value of pictures than about how positive or negative they are? -Silence 01:24, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If you ask me, Bill Clinton's page could use some work in the picture area. As far as this page, I don't see any problem with Blondlieut's suggestion. Like ElKevbo said, so long as they are appropriate for the article and section (not an image of Bush yelling at a reporting in the "early life" section or a picture of him as a child in the domestic policy section), a few pictures that aren't posed would be great; happy or otherwise. ​​​​AuburnPilot​​​​^Talk 01:37, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Silence, I would invite you to re-read what I wrote. I was looking for pictures regarding Bush's presidency (and folks' reaction to him and his policies) that would suggest that the United States is a functioning democracy. Do you consider that "positive" or "negative"? I would hope that you would consider that positive, regardless of your views of George W. Bush. Blondlieut 02:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

If I may be so bold: couldn't a photo of Bush sitting in the primary school after he's been told about the Twin Towers being attacked be put somewhere? It represents for so many people the kind of reaction and concern that many people associate with the American President. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 138.37.217.24 (talk • contribs) 15:23, November 14, 2006.

P.S. Yes, they're mostly happy, grining pictures of Old Bill on the Clinton page. If you find any pictures of folks assembling hither and yon calling for his impeachment, I think you should post those. As I recall, living in Washington, D.C., the riot police were just out in full force for that, bitter Americans by the hundreds of thousands marching on the White House. It really was a sight to see! Or maybe I'm being delusional. Or sarcastic. You choose. Blondlieut 02:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, so I found a picture I'm almost happy with. It's from an Iraq War protest in September 2005, it's a CC designation Wikipedia likes, and it shows the protest going on down Pennsylvania Avenue in Northwest Washington, close to Main Justice, with counterprotester (i.e., Bush supporters), in the foreground (almost more prominently than the protesters. So, it shows a real, life "public debate" about a central matter of the Bush presidency, it's oddly balanced (I didn't expect that), and it suggests that the United States is a functioning democracy. feedback?? Blondlieut 03:21, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. Where in the article would this pic go? It's a great image, quality and content wise, but I'm not sure I see where you want it to go...War section? Foreign Policy? Somewhere else? I'm going to insert it and preview a few placements without saving it so I can get some ideas. (oh and I shrunk the image; i know you worked hard to get it to a perfect size but it really was taking up a lot of space on this page; hope you don't mind. ;-)) ​​​​AuburnPilot​​​​^Talk 08:22, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The image here has nothing to do with the President...maybe in anti war protesting articles or something like that, but it's not relative to this article.--MONGO 08:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Nothing to do with the President? Well, the folks in the foreground have a sign that reads "Bush, the vision, the willpower and the backbone," so I'm not sure how it has nothing to do with Bush. The folks who are protesting are protesting against "Bush's war." There's a section on "Public perception;" this tells the story of the passions that Bush and his policies as President provokes, on the part of both his supporters and detractors. What could be more important to say about a president than that? That certainly does not come out in anything written thus far in the article. The photo says more about the president, though it does not show his likeness, than anything on the article page. What does the photo of him in front of the Mexico pyriad tells us about him?? That he went on a taxpayer-paid vacation to Mexico? Not terribly informative, really. Blondlieut 18:32, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Other then a mention of Bush the photo has little to do with him, it's not even at a location that he was scheduled to appear at (ie like protesters that show up at his public speaks). Now that photo might be good for the public perception article, but it has no place in this article. PPGMD 18:42, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with PPGMD that "public perception" is the only place that it belongs. Last I checked, however, that was still part of the main article. Even if could find a photo for an event at which he was scheduled to attend (there are some, but most are abroad, and none of those have anything that would suggest any support for the president at all, of course), I would think the same placement would be appropriate. Blondlieut 20:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

No I meant the Public Perception sub-article, unless the picture has or was likely to have Bush in it, it really has little place in this article. PPGMD 23:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe photos are for more than showing us what Bush looks like (or at least have the potential for that). I would suggest to you that all of the photos already in the article do merely that, and preciously little more than that, and this is simply a waste of space. Blondlieut 01:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree completely with your initial thought of pictures that aren't so stiff, but being Bush's bio, I think he should atleast be in the photo...or somewhere nearby. Did you find any candids of him? Maybe interacting with the people? (Does he do that?). Something less formal, but still focusing on Bush is what I imagined. ​​​​AuburnPilot​​​​^Talk 01:49, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

NO LUCK!!! Blondlieut 02:36, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well this photo features him, kind of [2]. Unfortunately we can't use it as it'll have to be fair use but we don't like fair use when we have other images unless there is a compelling reason (well okay I know that's not the only reason we can't use it, but anyway...) Nil Einne 15:07, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the image of George Bush in uniform. A National Guard uniform is no different than an Active Duty Uniform. Therefore, it makes no sense to refer to his uniform as a National Guard uniform in the caption. Could someone please edit the caption to read "LT George W. Bush."RedKnight34 19:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

It may not be phrased in precisely the right or best manner but the idea that his branch of service should be identified is very important. Simply titling it as "Lieutenant George W. Bush" is insufficient as all branches of the US Armed Forces have the rank or "Lieutenant." I'll go even further and state that the caption needs to be made more specific - is he a 1st Lieutenant or a 2nd Lieutenant in this photo? --ElKevbo 19:37, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with stating whether or not he is a first or second lieutenant, hard to tell from the picture though. I still think that the caption puts too much focus on National Guard. A reference to the Air Force may be appropriate, but I think his branch of service, for the sake of the phot, is irrelevant, as it is clearly mentioned in the article that he joined the National Guard.RedKnight34 19:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit]  :P

This page should be permanantly be locked... There Have Been Alot Of Things Going On And Will Cause Petty Vandalism All Over The Place.

Offensiveandconfusing 18:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Youre totally right, haha. It's never goign to get unlocked XD 3R1C 01:09, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] confusing

The statement "Bush is the descendant of English settlers from Somerset in the West Country of England. His family moved to Texas when he was two years old." is confusing - it makes it sound like Bush was born in England and then moved to the US. I know this is probably minor but I think it should at least be rephrased if not excluded altogether, since the article is about GWB *WHILE* he existed, not before! ▫Bad▫harlick♠ 17:46, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Just want to say: I agree with Bad here. And removing such phrases frees up room for more substantial text.Benzocane 20:51, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, at the beginning of the very sentence, it notes his birthplace is Connecticut. Kasreyn 06:30, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bad as well. I've rewritten it as Bush is the eldest son of George H. W. Bush and his wife Barbara Bush. Bush's family are descended from English settlers from Somerset in the West Country of England. His family moved to Texas from Conneticut when he was two years old. Less confusing, I thought. Walton monarchist89 09:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

Just wondering why the opening paragraph is so long. I enjoyed the format of the Bill_Clinton and George_H._W._Bush articles much more than this format. There seems to be too much information. I'm not suggesting anything is wrong with this approach on its face -- after all Ronald_Reagan, Jimmy_Carter and Gerald_R._Ford all have long introduction paragraphs as well. I just think its odd that I read the opening paragraph, then read all the same information again in each section. I'm just wondering what everyone else thought. Thanks, -- 131.107.0.73 20:35, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair point, but the trouble with a controversial article like this is that if you take anything out, however minor, people start quibbling and accuse you of pushing your own POV. If you examine the history of this talk page - which would probably by now fill a fair-sized library - you'll see how difficult it is to get any kind of consensus on any edit. Not to mention, there's constant vandalism by anti-Bush hooligans who like to add obscene comments. Sad, but it's one of the intrinsic drawbacks of Wikipedia. Walton monarchist89 09:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] George W. Bush 2004 or 2000 campaign

Hello, I am looking for informations on GW Bush s campain in either 2000 or in 2004...i am trying to analize the campaign from an advertising point of view...

Thank you for you help...if you could send me a mail with some links it would be great...

ionescu.t.tim@gmail.com

thank s again,

tim

Better yet post it right here for all to see. --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 01:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Video

I removed the link to the video of Bush giving the "One finger victory salute". It was not mentioned in the body of the page and since it was not mentioned as some sort of scandal, I felt it was superfluous to the page in general. Davemo 04:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that it should be removed since it doesn't benefit the article in any way. This was discussed once before very briefly. AuburnPilot^Talk 05:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

He's an angry man. Stop trying to push your POV. The public will know eventually... 128.62.103.232 15:38, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm convinced. AuburnPilot^Talk 15:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism and public perception

As of May 24, 2006, an average of major polls indicated that Bush's approval rating stood at 36.8%. As of 30 August 2006 his rating was 38.8%. On 9 September it was 40.0% and on 19 September 2006 it was 41.0%. On 27 September it had grown again, and was 42.0%.

Is it really necessary, or even appropriate, to update Bush's standing in the polls each week? Seems like overkill. How about simply stating that the polls show an upswing? AuburnPilot^Talk 02:47, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but now they have dropped!Edison 04:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

How about "have fluxuated frequently over the last year" with a link to the aproval raitings website. Piuro 21:05, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

response:

if only there were some way society had to convey the movement of a value over time, maybe with one of the human senses. perhaps music, or touch, or smell... or maybe a graph.

[edit] IQ

I'm not saying I hate Bush, but after a lot of internet research, I found this : http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bliq-bush.htm - a link that clearly states this : "..Forwarded email attributed to the nonexistent 'Lovenstein Institute' claims a recent report proves G.W. Bush has the lowest IQ of any modern president..". Do you think we should put something about this in the article? --71.252.128.218 02:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Why should something that is "obviously satire" be posted on a fact based encyclopedia. Especially when the source itself says: "I have found no evidence of a "Lovenstein Institute" in Scranton, Pennsylvania or anywhere else. There's no trace of a "Dr. Werner R. Lovenstein, world-renowned sociologist" or "Professor Patricia F. Dilliams, world-respected psychiatrist" — not in this world, at any rate. All of the facts and figures appear to have been fabricated." Gdo01 02:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

We've discussed this before, no need for something like that in the main article. It is, however, briefly mentioned as being a hoax in the more specialized article Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:56, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

"From time to time, Bush's intellectual capacities have been questioned by the media [101] and other politicians [102], leading to speculation about his IQ, of which no official record is known [103]." This is inflamitory, irrelevent, and factually unsuported (yes, we know that people question his intellegence, but there is nothing indicating that this is true. On the contrary, "Daddy's money" claims aside, the fact that he graduated from Yale speaks of an above average degree of intellegence. Articulation does not equal intellegence. Piuro 21:04, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

That does not make the statement factually unsupported or even untrue. The sentence only states that people have questioned his intellectual capacities, which you admit yourself. Believe it or not, this is a big part of how people, especially outside the US feel about GWB. Maybe its not a correct view of him, but denying that people feel this way is ignoring an opinion about him shared by many people. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 22:28, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Granted, but I don't see how that is relevent to the article, and it clearly is phrased in such a manner as ti suggest truth in those statements (Which, even if you think there is, violates NPOV. Piuro 23:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree it is phrased to suggest that. The sentence reports what the 3 sources linked tell us. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 23:08, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I could find sources saying that George Bush is a duck, it doesn't make it relevent to the topic at hand.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Piuro (talk • contribs) 23:40, October 13, 2006.

If one could find a peer-reviewed article stating that he is a duck then it might very well be relevant.

That there is a peer-reviewed article is one of the linchpins on which this topic discussion swings. I think we're perfectly okay saying that "A lot of people think he's dumb" as long as we can support that statement with a lot of references supporting the statement. To state that "He's dumb" would, of course, be completely unaceptable. --ElKevbo 04:58, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Its phrased in a very different way than "Some people think he's dumb." It practically says "Mass media is of the opinion that ush is dumb", which comes off much more like saying "There is be some legitimacy to these claims." Piuro 07:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't read it that way at all. But if if bothers you go ahead and try changing it to something else so we can see what you think it should say. Or propose something here. --ElKevbo 08:07, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

First of all, more detailed information can be found in the article Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush, which also includes that study. Previously, there was agreement here not to include that particular study in this article. The discussion can be found here: Talk:George_W._Bush/Archive_50#Bush.27s_IQ. I have no objections to other ways of formulating the sentence. I would object to removing it all together, for the reasons explained above (it is well-sourced, verifiable and a major part of how people outside the US see GWB). --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 11:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Then we should remove it and leave a link to further contraversies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Piuro (talk • contribs) 03:15, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

This is the type of stuff that people add when they attempt to vandilise the article--Coasttocoast 05:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

It can look like something added by people attempting to vandalize, but, as I stated before, it is a major part of how people outside the US see GWB and it is well-sourced. Therefore, inclusion as part of a neutral point-of-view sentence (which I think this is) is warranted. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 17:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the article link at the top of this section; You will notice that the President's IQ results favor the democratic side. If I could see more information that backs up this article then I would consider it. Also mispronunciations do not prove anything concerning IQ's. --User:William Amadio 22:11, 19 October 2006

The article does not claim that mispronunciations are proof of his IQ anywhere, they are two seperate issues that simply follow each other in the article. Also, the story you refer to is not as reference in this article. For more information on the IQ story, see Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush. Most of that information was, however, deliberately left out of this article (see previous discussions on the topic). --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 13:35, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the information makes this article look clumsy and POVish. It's unencyclopedic. --Homecomputer∴Peace 00:04, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The information is here because there has been a peer-reviewed study about the subject [3]. For more info see Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the website is complete BS I love how the article says Clinton and Carter are genuises and the two presidents Bush are retarded, and regean is barely average, althougt the latter 3 have agurably better records professionally and politicaly than the former 3. That and the website has the word "urbanlegend" in it... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Eno-Etile (talk • contribs) 00:40, 23 October 2006.

That website is BS, it is a hoax and s clearly described as such in all articles (and even has its own article: U.S. Presidents IQ hoax). The real study is this: [4]. For more info see Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

How do you know that the article written about that study of presidential IQ's is not just some ranting right-wing conservative? I am not insinuating that it is, but if you doubt the legitimacy of the study, then you must also doubt the article written about it. The study looked at all of the right aspects to determine someones IQ, it was not just a total bush-bash, so don't be so quick to doubt it. Besides, do you have any proven information about presidential IQ's to the contrary of this study? --Calard 8:34, 26 October 2006

It looks to me like Eno-Etile mixed up the IQ hoax from a few years ago with the real study, so unless he/she clearly states that he/she has a problem with the real study, we shouldn't bother too much at this point. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:37, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

There's a real study ? Prove it. All I know is you don't just graduate an ivy league school and, then have a successful political career if you're mentally disabled. No one has yet linked a real study the only link I'm seeing is from the hoax site.Eno-Etile 21:55, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Errr... You do if you happen to: a) be very rich; b) be an ex-president's son; c) have a horde of aides around you telling you what to do and say. Do you really believe they even looked at his grades when they accepted him at Yale? yandman 15:47, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Bush's grandpa was CT senator, and the name Bush swung a lot of weight around New Haven, even regardless of George Senior. Bush was also in the last class that got in to Yale before they redid the admissions to remove things like explicit preferences for children of notable families. To get a good picture of where Bush stood on entering Yale, Bush scored 1206 on the SAT; according to "The Shape of the River" by William Bowen and Derek Bok, about half the black affirmative action admissions have a SAT score of 1200 or higher. Of course, Bush was coming from a rich family and an exclusive prep school, the black kids were often coming from dirt poor and/or badly dysfunctional families and some of the worst schools in the world. Gzuckier 16:41, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Look up a few sentences. Hint: It's preceded by the apt phrase "The real study is this."  :) --ElKevbo 22:02, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

The real study is this: [5]. For more info see Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush. And please note I gave this exact reply a to your post of 23 October above. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 22:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

BTW: no one is claiming Bush is mentally disabled. The article only states that people have questioned whether his intellect (which is undoubtly well above average) is enough to be president. It is a fact that people have questioned this (check the sources in the article). No info on the real study or the hoax are in this article, so what are we talking about here. You will only find them both mentioned in Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 22:08, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologise I missed the link to the actual study. Still stating that people question hsi intellegence is a bit pointless for an encyclopedic article, since almost all public figures have thier intellegence questioned. A study on sanity or an actual IQ test that he willingly took would have a real place in the article IMO.Eno-Etile 02:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] National Debt under Bush Administration

The following table displays the national debt, per year, under the Bush Administration:

09/30/2005

$7,932,709,661,723.50

09/30/2004

$7,379,052,696,330.32

09/30/2003

$6,783,231,062,743.62

09/30/2002

$6,228,235,965,597.16

09/30/2001

$5,807,463,412,200.06

The National Debt, as of 10/12/06 is : 8,546,104,778,895.72

This illustrates a growth of the National Debt from $5,728,195,796,181.57 June 2002

Ceiling Raised to:$6.40 trillion

May 2003

Ceiling Raised to:$7.38 trillion

November 2004

Ceiling Raised to:$8.18 trillion

March 2006

Ceiling Raised to: $9 Trillion

DigitalCatalyst 17:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)Robert Dziekan

And? You want it included? You just want to point it out? Information in the article is wrong? Not covered? AuburnPilot^Talk 17:20, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I move for inclusion of this material in the main article, either under economic policy or under an independant heading following economic policy. I believe this information is critical in encapsulating the overall effects of his economic policy

DigitalCatalyst 19:00, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting data, to be sure, but wouldn't it be better placed in the article on United States public debt? I think article on George W. Bush might legitimately have a descriptive section on the American economy during his term, but not tables of raw economic data. 82.30.240.197 14:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - no tables. Further, there must be very noteable, verifiable information (interviews, public statements, academic papers, etc. from economists) linking this administration to these or any other numbers or economic indicators. For us as Wikipedia editors to look at these numbers, conclude that Bush has screwed up the economy, and write that into the article would definitely be original research. --ElKevbo 16:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I haven't looked at this article in a while, and I see that there's been a major effort to scrub it of information that Bush admirers would prefer to suppress. The current version barely alludes in passing to "record budget deficits" without giving any further information. The huge fiscal turnaround is one of the most important aspects of the Bush administration. It was covered much better a year ago. In going back through the history I happened upon the August 5, 2005 version; I haven't looked at earlier and later ones to say that this one is the best, but it's certainly vastly better than the current text:

During his first term Bush sought and obtained Congressional approval for three major tax cuts, which increased the standard income tax deduction for married couples, eliminated the estate tax, and reduced marginal tax rates, and are scheduled to expire a decade after passage. Bush has asked Congress to make the tax cuts permanent. According to the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, by 2003 these tax cuts had reduced total federal revenue, as a percentage of the Gross Domestic Product (GDP), to the lowest level since 1959. [6]

The effect of the tax cuts and simultaneous increases in spending was to create record budget deficits out of a record surplus, in less than one term. In the last year of the Clinton administration, the federal budget showed an annual surplus of more than $230 billion. [7] Under Bush, however, the government returned to deficit spending. The annual deficit reached record current-dollar levels of $374 billion in 2003 and $413 billion in 2004, though as a percentage of GDP these deficits are lower than the post-World War II record set under the Ronald Reagan administration in the 1980s. [8], [9]

In an open letter to Bush in 2004, more than 100 professors of business and economics at U.S. business schools ascribed this "fiscal reversal" to Bush's "policy of slashing taxes - primarily for those at the upper reaches of the income distribution". [10] Bush's supporters have countered that, primarily because of the doubling of the value of the child tax credit, "7.8 million low and middle-income families had their entire income tax liabilities erased by the cuts." [11]

This presents the key information without tables, and it satisfies ElKevbo's correct observation that we as editors shouldn't draw a link between the policies and the deficits, but that we should quote a prominent spokesperson for that view. JamesMLane t c 15:05, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Torture

Despite repeated claims from president bush that "We do not torture,"[12], his administration has repeatedly tried to stop all attempts at limiting torture, [13], also the pentagon has claimed that the president can legally torture anyone he deems to be a threat to security, [14] while many individuals, who are only claimed to be supporting terrorist organizations, are sent to other countries where torture can easily occur without any form of oversight, more often know as Extraordinary rendition. [15] More alarmingly the united states congress passed a resolution on September 14 2001 stating that

the President is authorized to use 'all' necessary and appropriate 'force' against those nations, organizations, or persons 'he' determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001... in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations or persons.

easily allowing legal leeway to allow the president to give orders

of torture. [16]

There have been dozens of prisoners in Iraq and Afghanistan killed at the hands of interrogators. Yet there have been almost no significant punishments for those who engaged in the torture, and no significant high military ranking arrests. [17]

The administrations use of torture has been one of the main considerations in the movement to impeach George W. Bush.

---

inappropriate, informal tone, not encyclopedic, doesnt belong in this article

User:AuburnPilot

Many of the things above have led to the movement to impeach George W. Bush of which is all related to Bush. How is this not appropriate? All these paragraphs are directly related to Bush and therefore does belong in this article. I can accept the fact that it may be written in an informal tone, but I have cited all necessary sources. --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 02:59, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

You may think it is relevant to the article, but may I suggest that you step back and take a wider view. If you treat Wikipedia as a soapbox for your personal opinions you are only building up trouble for yourself. --Jumbo 06:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Personal Opinion?

FACTS:

• Bush states he does not condone torture
• Bush Administration fights to block torture restricting laws.
• Prisoners are being tortured to death
• No one of importance (high ranking (military/civilian) official) is being charged with war crimes, or any other form of crime for that matter.

You can not dispute the truth of a fact. You may claim that they are not fact, but I've cited my sources and they are reliable (to most).

How is any of this personal opinion(other than the More alarmingly the part)? While it can not be proven that Bush is giving orders to torture, the overwhelming preponderance of circumstantial evidence is enough for any individual to have doubts about Bush's statements to the contrary. There may exist classified documents that prove that Bush did not have a hand in the orders of torture, but until the time comes when these documents become declassified the doubters will remain.

I can condone torture for maybe one or two individuals of whom involvement is absolutely certain when it pertains to national security, but their actions should be public for all to weigh in balance with all that is just and known to be true.

The More alarmingly the part of the original is unnecessary and I agree that is mostly my personal opinion, I apologize.

trouble for yourself--Jumbo nope thats why I call myself the --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 09:20, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Since I've been quoted above, I figured I'd respond. This information is definitly not NPOV. While it may be acceptable in an article about torture, accusations of torture, or controversies of GWB, it does not belong in his living bio. AuburnPilot^Talk 20:07, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Never said it was a perfect contribution, I definitely am not a great writer. Great we can agree that it's not perfect encyclopedic quality. However if my contributions and criticisms are not even relevant to Bush then the "received increasingly heated criticism, even from former allies, on the Iraq War, the Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandals," section must be removed from the opening paragraph, as it is not an actual topic of this article (except for the "on the Iraq War," part, but you get my point). I will move my discussion to the main Public perception and assessments of George W. Bush article, before continuing here, seeing as how torture is not mentioned a single time in that article. --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 21:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Just remember to keep WP:NPOV in mind; when people point things out, [18], they are not "bullying" you, but trying to help you become familiar with some of the policies and guidelines. AuburnPilot^Talk 21:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I will respond to this where the actual comment took place, as it is not relevant to President Bush. --ANONYMOUS COWARD0xC0DE 01:29, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The real question is what is the deffinition of torture? To some, like the Europeans, it's anything that would break the person's mental, physical, or emotional will to get information out of them. To lesser devoloped countries, it's cutting off fingers, tongues, etc.. So let's figure out what we mean by torture, then figure out if Bush did it and can be punished by our law, not U.N. or European law. - User:Dace48 October 23rd, 2006 10:24 CPT.

Just look at the Geneva Conventions,ratified by 194 countries, U.S. included. I really don't think anyone is disputing how torture is defined. Even if we had adopted the narrower definition, the one about causing organ failures, it wouldn't change anything because some people died from the interrogations. But I do agree that the def of torture should be included in the article.

The problem with the Geneva Conventions is that it is too vague. Also, because terrorists are not defending a country or wearing "colors of representation", they do not qualify for Geneva protection. About the "people died from the interrogations" comment, could you site the reference for that? - User:Dace48

[edit] Illiterate?

Maybe a reference should be made to the rumor that he is illiterate. One reference is Michael Moore's Stupid White Men, which provides evidence for his accusation of him being illiterate, including the "hungry caterpillar" incident. PureLegend 19:41, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias are for verifiable fact; not rumors. AuburnPilot^Talk 20:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

And Michael Moore is hardly a reliable source. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:22, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

Every paragraph of the introduction, after the first belongs in the body of the article. They can serve as introductory paragraphs to his elections, criticism, etc. Intro's should be short and general. This one isn't. Ramsquire 21:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The top section should adhere to WP:LEAD. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 21:23, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the article should also be easy to follow. With all that detail in the intro it makes for an awful read. For example

" He was re-elected as governor of Texas in 1998. Bush won the 2000 presidential election as the Republican candidate in a close and controversial contest. Although he did not secure a majority of the popular vote, he did win the number of electoral votes after a very close battle in the state of Florida. As President, Bush pushed through a $1.3 trillion tax cut program and the No Child Left Behind Act, and has made efforts to privatize Medicare and Social Security. Bush has also pushed for socially conservative efforts such as the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, faith-based welfare initiatives, the Palm Sunday Compromise and the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment."

can simply be re-written as

"He was re-elected Governor of Texas in 1998. Bush won the GOP nomination for President in 2000, and went on to win the Presidency in a close and controversial contest. He became the third President to win a President election without winning a majority of the popular vote."

the policy stuff could then just go into the body of the article under first term. Just my two cents to improve the article. Ramsquire 22:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm with Ramsquire. Most of the information in the intro is completely redundant with details that follow in the body of the article, and it goes beyond the basics set out under WP:LEAD. I propose simplifying as per Ramsquire's example. SlipperyN 03:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the introductory material could be effectively reduced and that the entry would thereby be considerably improved. Benzocane 19:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I made the changes discussed here. I only found 2 minor details in the cut material that were not in the body of the article (Bush as only president to have an MBA, and the meaning of 'arbusto'. I added these details to the Early Life section. SlipperyN 13:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with the movement of the MBA fact from the intro. As I discussed before, the fact that Bush is the first President to hold an MBA makes it a distinguishing characteristic of the President, and it belongs in the Intro. Examples of things in various intros to support this:

• Abraham Lincoln: first Republican President
• FDR: only President to server more than 2 terms
• Gerald Ford: only President to never be elected
• William Clinton: 12 years as governor
• Jimmy Carter: winner of Nobel Prize
• Woodrow Wilson: A devout Presbyterian; created the League of Nations
• Ronald Reagan: oldest person to be President
• William Howard Taft: only President to have served on the Supreme Court
• William McKinley: assasinated (even that is a distinguishing characteristic)
• Grover Cleveland: only President to serve two non-consecutive terms

I could go on, but I think this shows quite well that even little things are important in the intro. The fact that this fact is not mentioned in the body of the article underscores this. -GreyGh0st 16:35, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I think that a few of those examples are of facts which are much more interesting and important than Bush's MBA. And the others are merely examples of facts I would similarly oppose in the intro of an article. I remain unconvinced that this belongs in the intro. Sorry! --ElKevbo 17:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the distinguishing characteristic regarding the MBA IS still mentioned. I just moved it to the early history section rather than the introduction. Plenty of other potential distinguishing characteristics, and putting them in the intro is unnecessary. SlipperyN 21:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the fact that some of these other facts are more interesting, and I am not merely arguing for the sake of arguing, I am merely trying to highlight what I think is an important characteristic that really sets him apart from other presidents. This MBA fact may seem mundane, but a graduate level degree (from Harvard even) in business management and decision-making definately makes a difference as opposed to a law degree, or nuclear physics (Carter, possibly did not finish degree, but if he did, it should be in his intro too... ) or History. I'm just saying that the fact is not mundane unless you bury it in the article. -GreyGh0st 22:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

What about other Bush originals like being the only president to plead guilty to a DUI? Only president to have had ownership of an MLB team? Etc. What makes one of these points more worthy of inclusion in the opening paragraph? Having this in the intro because it seems to you to give him more intellectual credibility smells like POV to me. SlipperyN 03:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Too new & skittish to do the edit myself, but this line: NSA warrantless surveillance controversy, and a number of controversies such as the Plame CIA leak controversy in the intro is pretty bad, style-wise. The word 'controversy' shouldn't show up three times in >15 words. Noabsolutes 18:42, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Good call! How does it look now? --ElKevbo 18:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow, that was fast! Way better! Noabsolutes 18:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Does the article really need two foreign policy sections?

Number 1 Number 2

Sorry, I don't have the time to edit this, but I thought it deserves being fixed. Mozzie 06:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

They are listed under the according two terms of GWB, so it appears to make sense. --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:39, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

If it has a section for each term, it needs two FP sections, I think. Benzocane 15:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

The only thing I see that may need changing is the word policy/policies. It seems the first term uses policies (plural) for Domestic, Foreign, and Economic while the second term uses Policy (singular). Unifomity is nice. AuburnPilot^Talk 16:40, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out, folks, and particularly AuburnPilot for clarifiying the issue. I standardized all sections to "...Policy" (since what we're talking about is "policy" in the sense of a unified approach to all domestic or all foreign affairs). I also shrank some of the second-term headers to conform to the first-term style precedent. Cyrusc 18:43, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] npov Afghanistan

I am going to remove "successful" from the line "Following the successful overthrow of the Taliban" (in First term/foreign policy/wars subsection). "Overthrow of the Taliban" is npov and factual. "Successful" strikes me as misleading, given that the number of foreign troops in Afghanistan has more than tripled since 2003, and that NATO is calling for increased int'l participation in the face of the region's ongoing violence. Cyrusc 20:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I like the edit. Even without your explanation, generally, I don't like the use of words like "succesful" in articles. Let historians decide the success of matters, not Wiki editors. Ramsquire 20:24, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Me too. Also concerned about how this article treats the war in Afghanistan as if it were over and done with. NATO soldiers continue to die in Taliban and Al-Qaeda attacks and the fighting in Southern Afghanistan continues to worsen. Don't we need at least a paragraph about this? An encyclopedia entry on a president can't ignore an entire ongoing war that was a defining moment in his presidency. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rawls2000 (talk • contribs) . 20:38, 19 October 2006 (UTC).

I don't see that. Any sourced paragraph you have about that should go into the respective articles about that conflict. Again, let history decide what this President's defining moment is, not Wiki editors. Ramsquire 20:44, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ramsquire that the bulk of the information should go into the articles specific to the questions in conflict, but it seems clear that there is currently an inequality in this article: major issues like Katrina have a subsection while the war in Afghanistan receives very little text. What about dividing the 'wars' section into subsections--this would both give the opportunity for a brief encapuslation of the conflicts in question (and links to the main entries) and increase readability. What do others think?Benzocane 20:49, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

You have my support. Be bold. Ramsquire 21:18, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• I agree with Ramsquire and others--I've gone ahead and given Afghanistan its own section, though I made it as concise as possible. In order to accommodate the change, I made "wars" a separate heading from "foreign policy." Does that work for everyone? Cyrusc 22:32, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's exactly what we needed.Benzocane 22:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 2nd Term - Foreign Policy

"Iraqi elections were held in January and December 2005, as well as in a referendum to approve a constitution. Initial media reports of high voter turnout appear to have overestimated actual turnoutm." Little error there. Figured I'd point it out. New014 3:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] signing statements?

shouldn't there be a section on his unprecedented use of signing statements? he has issued i think more signing statements than all past presidents combined. (or something like that).

it's pretty signifigant but it's not in this article nor in the domestic policy article.

[edit] Bush considers changing tactics in Iraq

Oct. 20: President Bush acknowledges that "staying the course" in Iraq is not working and says he will consider a possible change in tactics in the war. (source: NBC) Shall we include this? Or include this in the Iraq War? 71.236.225.50 23:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This relates naturally to the Iraq War FIRST and to Pres. Bush SECOND. Only notable consequences of the statement and only those that are related specifically to Pres. Bush AND that are verifiable should make it into this article.--Gkklein 03:15, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay FIRST OFF you moron this WILL be in the article, IS THAT UNDERSTOOD? For one this is notable info since he was so reluctant to stay on course on the Iraq war even though 61/62% of America think otherwise, so now he is finally doing it. ALSO seconed off, this is verifiable, again it's on NBC news. GO to their website for more info. Or google it. You guys got THREE DAYS to put this in, or that's it. I will —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.236.225.50 (talk • contribs) 22:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Please see Wikipedia's no personal attacks policy. Comment on content, not on the contributor; personal attacks damage the community and deter users. Note that continued personal attacks may lead to blocks for disruption. Please stay cool and keep this in mind while editing. Thank you. Picaroon9288 22:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tet Offensive comment

Some people have tried to insert the Tet Offensive comment by President Bush. While it may be some what of an accurate comparison of Tet to Iraq. It actually shows that President Bush knows history. The Tet Offensive was a propaganda victory for the Vietcongs, not a military victory. And it's showing to be the same case in Iraq today where the media has been playing the "Insurgency are winning in Iraq". However that's not the case. There are areas in Southern Iraq and Northern Iraq that are quiet. The province where the media focuses on is the Al Anbar Province & Baghdad which is quite not so peaceful compare to the rest of Iraq. So I suggest people don't overdo on the Tet Offensive comment by President Bush. ViriiK 19:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The White House did clarify about that though, that was in the source that I've inserted. Although could have been put in the (including clarification by the WH) War in Iraq article maybe as well as the Alberto Fernandez critics (arrogance and stupidity) on the mission. Although we may compare with Vietnam in regards of casualties instead of the Tet event (at least over 10 000 deaths in total) although there was a biz flewing that it was well over that (heard something like 600 000 or something)--JForget 20:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The Alberto Fernandez does not belong in there since it's not his biography but rather President Bush. You're just adding it there because it attack Bush's commitment to Iraq thus can be viewed as bias. Casualties in regard to Vietnam and Iraq are still not quite comparable. The order of half a million troops came before Tet Offensive. Whereas casualties skyrocketed as the US Operation became more and more expanded in Vietnam while still being restricted by the Johnson Administration's policy of intervention into the North. At this rate in Iraq, casualties would go as high as 7,000 KIA in the same number of months (13 years). The Tet Offensive however had 4,324 KIA vs the Vietcong's 50,000 plus in a single offensive. ViriiK 20:37, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kyoto

As far as I know, Bush has not withdrawn from the treaty (and this is supported by the Kyoto article) Nil Einne 19:37, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

The treaty was never ratified by Congress although Clinton may have signed it. Especially when they demanded timetables and total participation with a vote of 95-0 in the Byrd-Hagel Resolution [19] ViriiK 23:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] guard service footnote questionable

the supporting documentation for his guard service... is wholely one sided... and it doesn't bother to address, for instance, the details that are in conflict, instead, it implies that the issue is that he didn't rack up enough flight hours, then, mindblowingly, it proves something... that the opposition doesn't contest, while ignoring just about every detail that is actually controversial. amazingly, it notes, that for the first 80 weeks, when he was doing full time flight training, he had flight hours in spec with someone... and this'll shock the stuffing out of the democratic attack machine... that doesn't mention this, who was training full time to become a national guard pilot... who'd a thought, when democrats, and republicans alike agreed that his training was par for the course, that his training, was par for the course. and my point is, that the quality of the linked article, is such, that every "revelation" that the author "reveals" is just as unexpected, in that it doesn't discuss the missing documents.

What missing documents? If you're refering to the Killian Documents, it was a fake. ViriiK 19:40, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is why

This is exactly why this page is being disabled. People just keep posting their completly biased opinions. Whether it's for or against Bush, it's just as bad as advirtising. --Cronic liar 22:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any specific examples from the article that we can address/rewrite, or are you referring to this talk page? Or something else? AuburnPilot^Talk 23:08, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it would be good if examples could be cited, then I can start to understand what he is saying. --SunStar Net 10:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I think he was referring to the vandalism on the 25th where somone deleted the whole page and replaced it with a rant about bush destroying the World Trade Center. I was going to attempt to correct it myself, but I kept losing connection, so uhh congrats whoever did correct it.Eno-Etile 02:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bin Laden

I count 42 mentions of Bin Laden in the main Clinton article. By contrast, this main article for Bush has a grand total of TWO mentions of Bin Laden. (In fact, the main article on Bush had ZERO mentions of Bin Laden until I recently raised this issue myself in the "Discussion" area). I find this incredible. If you read the 2 articles, you pretty much get the sense that the fact that Bin Laden remains a free man today is entirely due to Clinton. I've seen a lot of pro-GOP bias over the years on Wikpedia, but this issue sets a new low for this "reference" resource. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.86.120.67 (talk • contribs) 14:14, October 30, 2006.

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. --ElKevbo 19:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Er well, he's an anon and this page is semiprotected... Nil Einne 11:58, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia section

This new trivia section is a bit worrisome. While WP:NOT doesn't say much, or anything actually, about trivia, these sections tend to be a breading ground for useless information. WP:TRIVIA is neither a guideline nor policy, but it has some good points. If the section stays, it needs to be carefully scrutinized. I like the idea given in the guideline avoid trivia sections in articles. It states that such sections should not necessarily be removed on sight, but used as a temporary (not permanent) list of information that should be worked into the article. It goes on to say that once the information is included in the article, and the list is empty, the section should be removed. Any thoughts? AuburnPilot^talk 22:27, 30 October 2006 _(UTC)

I couldn't agree more and suggest that we remove it. It's far from 'encyclopedic' and it also takes up valuable space.Benzocane 17:03, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What new possible data if any

What new and well sourced possible data if any at all even really exists has emerged through Wikipedia concerning Osama who (if alive ?) is to turn 50 years old on what is to be March 10th of 2007. And what new and fresh data if any has surfaced and emerged on George Walker Bush of who is to be 61 years old on July 06th of 2007 in his exhaustive and unrelenting hunt on terrorists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Berniethomas68 04:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh? yandman 18:21, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

If you think that's confusing, check out the last question he asked on this page. [20] -- AuburnPilot^talk 01:48, 3 November 2006 _(UTC)

I think he's adding a lot of unnecessary info to his question and not punctuating properly. Basically, it seems to me what he's asking is

"What new and well sourced possible data if any at all even really exists has emerged through Wikipedia concerning Osama who (if alive ?) is to turn 50 years old on what is to be March 10th of 2007. And what new and fresh data, if any, has surfaced and emerged on George Walker Bush of who is to be 61 years old on July 06th of 2007 in his exhaustive and unrelenting hunt on for terrorists.".

The first sentence can be understood. The answer is nothing since wikipedia is not supposed to be discovering new data. The second sentence, I'm not quite sure if he's asking what new data has emerged on GWB or whether GWB has found anything new about Osama Nil Einne 11:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better Picture for Economic Policy

The photograph of Bush talking to the vp from Air Force One on 9/11 is, in my opinion, an excellent photograph. But it doesn't have anything to do with economic policy. Perhaps a more relevant one could be used instead?

[edit] Neutrality

I'd like to dispute the opening paragraph that he is the first president to win a majority in the election in 16 years. That is a highly subjective comment. Newsmax, cited as source, is biased and not a reliable source. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.160.216.161 (talk • contribs) 20:33, November 2, 2006.

You are free to dispute it, but Dubya, is the first President since '88 to get 51% of the vote. In 92 Clinton got 43, in 96 he got 48 or 49, and in 2000, Bush obviously didn't get that majority. Sorry you don't like the cite, but the info is accurate. Ramsquire ^{(throw me a line)} 01:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I can understand requesting an alternative or additional source but I don't quite understand how you can label that claim "subjective." It's mathematics - either he won over half or he didn't. --ElKevbo 01:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, there's not much to dispute here. As Ramsquire pointed out, the numbers show he's the first to win a majority since '88. -- AuburnPilot^talk 01:46, 3 November 2006 _(UTC)

I think the more important question is whether it is actually notable. Titanium Dragon 09:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA?

Was this FA nomination made in good faith? The user that made the nomination doesn't appear to have followed very good form (the link to the FAC discussion goes to an old discussion) and several other FAC nominations made by the user appear to have been either in bad faith or simply poor form. Can someone more familiar with the FAC process please look into this? Thanks! --ElKevbo 01:50, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it is actually nominated. I think the person who placed the Featured article template at the top of this page simply placed the incorrect template. It should be {{FACfailed}} instead. I couldn't find it listed on the candidate page so I'm going to swap out the template on this page for the failed one. -- AuburnPilot^talk 01:59, 3 November 2006 _(UTC)

And I just noticed the FAC template is actually the small talk page version....I really don't think the small ones are effective. I hope that doesnt become standard. -- AuburnPilot^talk 02:01, 3 November 2006 _(UTC)

I actually like them. Things that aren't going to change, and are not that big of a deal like FACfailed templates, former Peer Review, and task force template should be the small version IMO. To-do lists, and other big notices should be the full size. By doing that and making two columns of the small ones we could cut down the size quite a bit. PPGMD 02:35, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology to address 1st and 2nd elections

In the introductory statements, shouldn't different wording be used to reflect the voting scandals that occured during both elections, as well as the supreme court's involvement and voting machine problems? It just seems too straight-forward to say 'elected' like any other election. Tyciol 20:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

George Bush won the electoral college in both elections, meaning he was elected just like any other election. The scandals are noted in necessary sections and subsequent articles and need not be addressed in the introduction. Doing so would be giving undue weight to the alternate POV. -- AuburnPilot^talk 21:36, 4 November 2006 _(UTC)

[edit] Archive

Where are the talk archives, were these pages just wiped or something? Anyway, I think it's time to archive a couple more to minimize the size of this page. Tyciol 20:48, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

You can find archives of the talk pages from the previous 3-4 years within the Archive box at the top of this page. I've only done one archive on an article talk page so I'll leave the archiving up to somebody else, if necessary. -- AuburnPilot^talk 21:37, 4 November 2006 _(UTC)

[edit] Large gap of space

Ok, is everyone else seeing the huge gap of space at the beginning of the article or is Firefox just screwing with me? -- AuburnPilot^talk 23:33, 4 November 2006 _(UTC)

I see it too, in both Firefox and Safari, and haven't been able to make it go away (yet) by experimentally deleting stuff at the top--but then the preview function messes with that space so it may not give accurate results. (I'm using a different skin from you too--Classic.) Not sure what's up. Antandrus (talk) 23:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

It looks like it's an Infobox_President thing. There's a note at Template_talk:Infobox_President from a user who has noticed this problem. If I understand his or her note correctly, he or she has caused the problem by attempting to clean up the template. --ElKevbo 23:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Aha, thanks: I just discovered the same thing by copying the whole to my user space and trying out various deletions. Guess we have to fix IBP. Antandrus (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, perfect. At least we've figured out the problem. Next step, fixing it. That, and speedy deleting my image, which I'll do now. Thanks for the quick response! -- AuburnPilot^talk 23:58, 4 November 2006 _(UTC)

[edit] George Washington Bush

This was inserted on October 27, 2006 but I do not see the point why it needs to be there for someone that is already deceased for a century & half and not well known. He's only significant for being one of the first black settlers in the Oregon Country. Is he in our history books when we go to school reviewing American History? Most likely not. But George W. Bush will be and plays a huge role in American History compared to someone on a small feat for the first time. ViriiK 07:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personality

Just a thought, but shouldn't there be a section for things we know about what sort of man he is? His personality, interests and the like. And, of course, his reputation on the whole and how satire attacks him. Like I say, just a thought. The Queen has it. Michaelritchie200 18:13, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unlocked?

Just out of curiosity, has this article been completely unprotected at all in the past 6 years? aido2002 04:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It has been protected and unprotected more then 500 times in the past two years. I hope this anwsers your question. --I c e d K o l a ^{(Contributions)} 04:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I was curious of that myself. I have NEVER seen it unprotected. But I'll take your word on it. :) Dark jedi requiem 08:57, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox - Religion

We have an obligation to tell the truth on Wikipedia. George W. Bush's allegiance belongs to a satanic society called Skull and Bones. Sure he belongs to the United Methodist Church for PR reasons, but that isn't where his true allegiance lies. I am keeping Religion = Skull and Bones in the infobox because it is more true and correct and I don't appreciate the reverts. ElijahFalling 07:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out the change. I have of course reinstated the correct religion. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 07:13, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't do this. WP:3RR will only apply to you; anyone who reverts you is removing vandalism. I have refrained from posting vandalism warnings to your page so far; if you insist on going down this road, you're going to earn yourself a block. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 07:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

That's 3 reverts. ElijahFalling, this is considered vandalism, as you are not arguing for your changes on the discussion page or citing a source for your (obviously contested) edit. Feeeshboy 07:22, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually I did argue for my changes as seen above. Jim Douglass also broke the 3 revert rule, so I notified him on his talk page. He removed it, which is vandalism. ElijahFalling 07:30, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverting obvious vandalism is allowed under 3RR. What Jim did is fine. Regards, Ben Aveling 07:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked for trolling. Alphachimp 07:39, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Clearly a single purpose account. Probably a sock, does anyone recognise the Fist? Regards, Ben Aveling 08:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox- date of birth

In the infobox, it says "Born: 6 July, 1946 (age 60)". Does this mean he was 60 when he was born? I've deleted the age to stop any confusion. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Cdlw93 (talk • contribs) .

I just really don't think anybody was confused into thinking it meant he was 60 when he was born. Especially considering age is the number of years since birth. I have reinstated the age. -- AuburnPilot^talk 05:36, 8 November 2006 _(UTC)

And I have removed it again. We need to avoid statements that date quickly, and one year is pretty quick. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 10:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't it set the age automatically? I thought that was the whole point of the template... yandman 10:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I surrender! --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 10:40, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cabinet

Bolton, Hadley and Portman? members of the Cabinet? I thought the Cabinet members were just the Vice President & Department Heads? GoodDay 21:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I've removed Bolton, Hadley & Portman from Cabinet section. Reason; look at other US President's cabinets. GoodDay 01:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Rumsfeld has resigned, this should be reflected in the table. --Geo115fr 10:18, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Isn't he going to serve until the new secretary is confirmed? We should wait until that time to change it. 2nd Piston Honda 10:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] President Waffle

Is someone going to add today's "I was for Secretary Rumsfeld serving to the end of my term until I was against Secretary Rumsfeld serving any more of my term" flip flop to the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.69.139.8 (talk • contribs) .

Short answer: no. Short, but slightly extended answer: Not everything the president says/does belongs in an encyclopedia. This is one of the cases where it doesn't. Thanks for the suggestion anyway. -- AuburnPilot^talk 05:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Not everything the POTUS says needs to go into a wikipedia article, but when W's main campaign tactic against Kerry was implying Kerry was a 'waffler', for W to state that Rumsfeld is going to be his SoD 'till the end of my term' and then one week later accept his resignation (after declining to accept resignation TWICE before) it speaks very much to the character of the man and/or the political state of affairs of the country either of which deserves to be recorded in an encyclopedia.

Why? The election had taken place and he assessed his decisions in light of it. That's not necessarily waffling. 2nd Piston Honda 02:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, maybe not in those words, but it is definitely important that he stuck with Rumsfeld in the face of all criticism and to his own detriment, then let him go after the election. There's been lots of comment we can quote. Gzuckier 14:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Drug Use?

I'm sure it has been discused here anyway, but why isn't there mention of his suspected drug use when younger? If there is a fear of libel laws, then certainly it is appropriate to mention the widespread speculation in the media and population 67.175.167.58 14:26, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

There's a whole paragraph about it in the "early life" section. yandman 14:42, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Donald Rumsfeld

Time to update the page. DR stepped down yesterday!!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Booher 07 (talk • contribs) 17:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

What's out of date about the page? Please be more specific, it's a long article... --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 18:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

If you read the article, you may note that it has already been updated to reflect the change in Bush's cabinet. Within the table, DR's term has been noted as ending in 2006, and the following statement is included in the body of the article "In November 2006, Bush replaced Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld with former CIA Director Robert Gates, in response to pressure from the midterm elections and military publications.". If anything, this needs to be changed since Gates has not been confirmed, only nominated. (As far as I know) -- AuburnPilot^talk 18:10, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Everything that I've read says that Rumsfeld is staying on until he is "replaced...and the transition is completed." I don't know if that means he will be there until Gates is confirmed or that there is some other transition that is taking place (if he leaves before Gates is confirmed who's in charge? His Deputy? Gates as an "acting" SecDef?). Further, Rumsfeld is still listed on the DOD website as the Secretary of Defense.

I'm sure that we'll keep this article and others updated as events actually happen but we need to be careful not jump the gun. We're doing pretty good so far. --ElKevbo 18:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

User:The Filmaker has deleted this section per WP:TRIV; do any of these facts warrant integration into the article? -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 02:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

1. George W. Bush is the second son of a former president to become president. John Quincy Adams, son of John Adams became the first in 1825.
2. George W. Bush is the second president born after World War II. The first was his immediate predecessor, Bill Clinton.
3. In 2000, George W Bush is the first president since Benjamin Harrison in 1889 to be elected without winning the popular vote.
4. Beginning in 1976, every Republican presidential ticket had either a Dole or a Bush on it. Robert Dole was Vice Presidential Candidate in 1976 and Presidential Candidate in 1996. George H W Bush was on the ticket as Vice presidential candidate in 1980 and 1984 as well as presidential candidate in 1988 and 1992. George W Bush was presidential candidate in 2000 and 2004.
5. In 2004, George W. Bush was the first Republican candidate for president since Richard Nixon in 1968 to be younger than his Democratic Party opponent. Richard Nixon was born in 1913 while Hubert Humphrey was born in 1911. Nixon's opponent in 1972, George McGovern, was born in 1922. Gerald Ford's 1976 opponent Jimmy Carter was born in 1924 while Ford was born in 1913. Ronald Reagan, nominee and winner in 1980 and 1984, was born in 1911. His 1980 opponent was Jimmy Carter. His 1984 opponent Walter Mondale was born in 1928. 1988 Republican nominee and election-winner George H. W. Bush was born in 1924 while opponent Michael Dukakis was born in 1931. His 1992 opponent Bill Clinton was born in 1946. Bill Clinton's 1996 Republican opponent Robert Dole was born in 1923. George W. Bush's 2000 opponent Al Gore was two years younger; Gore was born in 1948. John Kerry, his 2004 opponent, is older and was born in 1943.
6. Bill Clinton and George W. Bush were both born in 1946.
7. George W. Bush is the first Governor of Texas ever to be elected president.
8. George W. Bush is the only president, current or former, to currently have any parents still living (George and Barbara are both still living). -Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 02:52, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely must keep: 1, 3

Should keep: 7

Leaning towards keep: 4, and, if it can be done, 8

Interesting, probably nothing more than trivia: 2, 5, 6

-Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)}

I agree with User:Patstuart on 1 & 3; those are both important facts. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other on 7. Most of the other items strike me as trivia. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 03:11, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

1 barely passes being trivial and 3 is already present in the article, the rest seem to be all trivial world (or rather national) records that don't even deserve a placement in the Guinness Book. The Filmaker 03:58, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

3 is inaccurate, Ben Harrison lost the popular vote in 1888 (not 1889). 1889 makes its look like the 1888 US presidential election was decided in the US House of Represenatives (presidency) & US Senate (vice presidency), which isn't the case. GoodDay 17:23, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Trivia sections have been deleted in this article so many times now, I think I even did it once. We need to keep our eyes out for new ones starting to creep in. And I agree with the above assessment by Patstuart. --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 17:26, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

For some reason, people keep insisting on changing the trivia section. I'm a bit tired of checking up on this article to find five or six trivia reversions. Can we just decide on the trivia allowed in the article and keep it at that? Possibly leave a hidden note in the text for those who are new to editing this page? --Iriseyes 18:12, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I've added a short trivia, to semi-correct another (first pres. born after WWII). Further more I've trimmed down other trivia, to make section appear less cluttery, thus shortening the length of the whole article. GoodDay 19:01, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I would personally get rid of the entire section. Any "trivia" which is actually relevant should be incorporated in the article. Andrew Levine 18:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opening

Maybe it's just because of my own political views, but I think that using Bush's thumping quote at the end of the opening paragraphs reflects a bit of bias and disrespect... perhaps the results of the recent elections could be summarized a bit more eloquently? I just wanted to see if anyone else agrees with me before changing it.Chuckos 02:07, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Nice thought. {{sofixit}} applies here, as you seem quite knowledgable in the appropriate wording to replace it with. Have fun. :-) --Lord Deskana (swiftmend!) 17:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "War President" restored

I have restored a minor note which was in the article a few months ago. Since it refers to a description made by Bush of the nature of his own presidency, it seems highly relevant & noteworthy to me. I can't begin to image why it was removed & could find no mention of it on the talk page. Kasreyn 05:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It belongs in the article. Walton monarchist89 12:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iraq War section

The Iraq War section is listed under the President's first term, but much of the information it contains carries over into the sceond term. Any suggestions as to how it should be organized? Jpers36 16:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Economic Policy

The Economic Policy section is only three paragraphs? Would anyone mind filling it up with some more info? Fephisto 17:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Please don't. The three paragraphs in the article are only for the first term. If you want to add more information (which is certainly possible and likely desireable), please do so in a new or different article. This one is already very long. I also don't think that particular section needs more detail although it might be better served by different details. --ElKevbo 17:35, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Will Ferrell and Will Forte, and maybe Will Sasso

I've always thought it was a severe deficiency of this article to not even mention Will Ferrell. As for Family Guy, it is very important because it is one of the few animated shows to criticize Bush directly. The Simpsons does so in disappointingly oblique ways (e.g., "Commander Cuckoo-Bananas"). Cromulent Kwyjibo 21:59, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This material is not at all notable to George W. Bush's bio and it should in no way be included in the article. I am against it 100%. -- AuburnPilot^talk 22:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Under absolutely no circumstances should any of this trivia be included in the article, and I will personally take it to arbitration if the revert war continues. --Iriseyes 22:13, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Weird threat of the year award contender. Gzuckier 17:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I know they want us to keep our speeches short, so I just want to thank my mom, my dad, my husband (you are my guiding light! I love you baby!) and my computer, for providing me with this incredible award. Oh, is that the orchestra? Well, I guess they want me to cut this shorter. Thank you, Wikipedia Academy! --Iriseyes 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

A quick mention of criticism and popular culture critique wouldn't be a problem, but if we dwell on it and provide every example of criticism, it becomes non-notable and a case-in-point of weasel words and POV pushing (if you want an example of how "including all information" can turn into a case of POV pushing, try Reforms under Islam (610-661)#Animals). Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 22:29, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer we shorten the article as it is before including even more trivia. --Iriseyes 23:32, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Would it be acceptable to have an article titled Fictionalized portrayals of George W. Bush, which would include both dramatic and comedic works, as well as anything else? We could then provide a link to that on this article, most likely not in the criticism section but somewhere else. Jpers36 17:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I actually really like this idea. It lets the trivia party write what they like, and keeps this article clean and the anti-trivia group satisfied. Could one of the advocates of the trivia section please spearhead this? --Iriseyes 22:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's an excellent suggestion and the proposed article could turn out to be very interesting and informative. --ElKevbo 23:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Probably the best solution. (Personally, I feel that Wikipeida too often starts out with something reasonable like "George Bush is often portrayed in the media as ....." and ends up with a list of 250 items like "In St. Mary's Day Care of Winnetka Illinois 2005 Christmas pageant, the King Herod was wearing a Bush mask".Gzuckier 17:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

How about Fictionalized portrayals of Woodrow Wilson? 2nd Piston Honda 17:48, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Hey, sounds good to me. I'd like to see how Wilson has been portrayed fictionally, both during his tenure as President and in the time since. Fictionalized portrayals of Abraham Lincoln would be very interesting as well. Fictionalized portrayals of Millard Fillmore, on the other hand, may not receive much content. Jpers36 17:53, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

And Wikipedia's systematic anti-Fillmore bias rears its ugly head again... --ElKevbo 23:51, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Mallard Fillmore Gzuckier 18:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sarcasm is really wasted effort at Wikipedia. Kasreyn 23:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The false authority of Wikipedia makes us take ourselves too seriously. But hey, Wikipedia is a better time waster than most. --Iriseyes 00:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh crap. I was just about to turn in a paper on Fictionalized portrayals of Millard Fillmore. Patstuart^{(talk)(contribs)} 00:34, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

There should be the proposed "fictionalized portrayals of..." articles proposed for those modern era presidents and a few of the more famous ones from the past (e.g., Washington, Lincoln). But in every case, the main article should mention the most important of these. SNL and Family Guy are probably the most important in Bush's case. Cromulent Kwyjibo 17:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Who is going to inform the folks who fictionally portray George Bush, then, that we have decided that their work is in no way notable? Gzuckier 17:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you believe it is notable, please, create an article about the topic. It is not, however, notable to George W. Bush's life or career. This is a WP:BIO of George W. Bush and this content does not in any way better a reader's understand of Bush. -- AuburnPilot^talk 17:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As I enlarged above, I don't think the kind of list of every portrayal of Bush ever that Wikipedia specializes in would be appropriate here, but well summarized NONPOV sentence or two might be useful, then i suppose a link to the inevitable list. Gzuckier 18:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Since none of the pro-trivia people could be bothered, I started the page that was suggested. I pasted in (and fixed up) all the information that kept being reverted and re-reverted, but it's a very short article, so if anyone would like to keep adding info onto it, please do. Is this conflict resolved, then? --Iriseyes 20:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you don't call someone you can't claim they "could not be reached for comment." Some of us spend some of our waking hours offline. Anton Mravcek 15:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

As I should be doing right now, I have a calc test in an hour. Thank you for reminding me. --Iriseyes 17:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)