Talk:Gol Transportes Aéreos Flight 1907

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Contents 1 Criticism of Joe Sharkey in Brazil 2 Leaked ATC transcripts 3 alleged radio (voice) failure 4 ANAC photo copyright 5 Heads-up 6 Confusing information 7 Preliminary report released to press 8 Commission structure 9 Prelimary report details 10 Question about the collision point

[edit] Criticism of Joe Sharkey in Brazil

Government officials in Brazil have been among those being outspoken critics of comments made by jornalist Joe Sharkey. It became a major issue in Brazil and I would think it might deserve a session here.--Gkklein 18:21, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I think it is more of a he said/she said type gossip at this point and is non encyclopedic. Since living people are involved, we would have to exercise extreme caution not to violate WP:BLP. Crum375 18:27, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leaked ATC transcripts

I have revised the wording somewhat, after reading the recent reports carefully. I would much prefer getting the 'real deal': actual transcripts, of the air-to-ground communication as well as landline, plus any additional black box voice transcripts. But at the moment all we have are the leaks, which are partial and shaky, but they do match the Legacy crew's depositions. I welcome any comments. Crum375 05:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the "as filed" piece, I did read some speculation in the press about it, but don't consider it to be pertinent at this point. Yes, the use of "as filed", had there been one, would indicate that the originally filed flight (with its altitudes and route) would be resumed past a certain point. But as we don't really have the actual transcripts, only leaked snippets, I feel we should stick to what we know, and avoid at this point noting what was not said (e.g. maybe the clearance was amended downstream - not likely but we don't have an official version yet). I think just getting the 'leaked' initial clearance and showing it matches the crew's version is reasonably safe WP-wise at this point, and I suggest leaving speculations about what was not said and why for the investigators' final report. Recall that we are dealing with potential errors on the part of live human beings (ATC and/or the pilots), and per WP:BLP we really want hard facts as much as possible. Crum375 14:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. We have an accurate enough picture from press reports about what happened with the altitude. We're not speculating: the air force confirmed that the ATC erred in its clearance (see [1]). What the "as filed" statement does is explain what the significance of the error was (And it's not even analysis or opinion--we both agree on what "as filed" means). Overall, I agree that the ideal situation is to obtain primary source documents to corroborate the article, but I think that when a news story is specifically confirmed by the air force, its validity is sufficient for the article. --Dali-Llama 18:46, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I again re-read the Folha article. It mentions an interview with BAF, without giving us the actual transcript of the interview. It mentions ATC communications, without giving us their transcript. It mentions depositions of the Legacy crew, again without actual transcript. The Folha editor, I am fairly certain, is not an aviation safety expert nor otherwise IFR qualified, increasing the odds for misunderstanding. In addition, we have already clearly seen plenty of reporting and analysis mistakes in this case. The 'as filed' issue, IMO, does not add anything critical at this point. Yes, as I noted, leaving out the 'as filed' would further prove that the Legacy crew was correct in their understanding of their clearance, but we really don't know the whole story. There could have been other clearances, or nuances along the way. Since we are in effect casting blame on living individuals (ATC personnel in this case), let's wait for the hard evidence to come in. As I noted numerous times elsewhere on this Talk page, that would be actual transcripts (not leaked 3rd hand tidbits) of ATC comm tapes, CVR, etc. Let's leave the speculation to the media - our mandate is to get it right, to the best of our ability, at the possible cost of not including everything immediately. Crum375 19:56, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Just because the info will improve over time (although it is not a certainty that all details will be made public) does not mean we should not reflect here at WP what is being widely reported. I think we have been and continue to be too cautious in this article in this respect. What is sometimes happening here is in danger of verging on censorship. There is far too much reluctance here to just report the facts as they emerge: A very interesting leak of a report has occurred must be reported as exactly that. The fact is that of the leak of the report criticising an aspect of the ATC and which corroborates the pilots' statements. I am not saying that WP must give greater credence to the leak than it deserves, just that the fact of this highly relevant leak must not be suppressed here at WP. Paul Beardsell 04:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I agree.--Dali-Llama 04:25, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The leak is not 'suppressed' -- it is in fact reported. What is suppressed is speculation about the wording or missing wording of the clearance, for which we have no exact copy, nor any subsequent amendments. An IFR flight consists of many communications with ATC, each of which could potentially contain an amendment superseding all previous ones. At this point, given the sensitive WP:BLP nature of this article, and its effect on human lives, I think the current version makes sense. Once we get hard data in the form of real transcripts as opposed to off-the-records leaks from unnamed sources, we can get more detail in. Up to now we have done a pretty good job of skirting the major gaffes of the media, like reporting on the AD that didn't apply, the filed flight plan that was superseded by the clearance, the altitude deviation by the Legacy that never was, etc. Let's keep up our good track record. We are not the media, eager to print to fill news space - as an encyclopedia we try to get the correct information from the beginning. Crum375 04:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

But the correct information is that some very well informed reasoning is happening as direct commentary on the leaks. This needs to be reported here. Paul Beardsell 22:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Further, I think the speculation is not quite how you represent it. Of course it is possible that "as per flight plan" could have been tacked on to the end of the clearance. But it is unlikely - ATC phraseology is standardised and ATC is trained not to introduce potential ambiguity. [I have said to ATC "as per flight plan" (drawing their attention to the fact that I have filed one) but never have I heard ATC say anything like that back.] [And a flight plan is NOT NOT NOT a clearance!] Taking your argument to it's logical extreme you would have us consider the tiny (but non-zero) possibility that the two Embraer pilots said to each other "Let's see how close we can get to that 737". Your style of argument would require us to hold that UNTIL THE ENTIRE BLACK BOX TRANSCRIPT IS RELEASED WE CAN NOT BE CERTAIN THEY DID NOT SAY THIS. No. Obviously: The leak, if true, strongly supports the pilots' assertion they were cleared to be at that altitude and thus exonerates them and implicates ATC. And several are reported as saying exactly this. The article should report what is being said in this regard. this is not our speculation and it is not us connecting the dots. But refusing to report well informed and logical speculation which has great bearing is us being selective / editorialising / censoring. Paul Beardsell 22:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

For some time the inference to be drawn from the article is that the Embraer pilots were at fault because WP has been reporting what Brazilian ATC has been saying (one aspect of which is now shown almost certainly to be false) and what the media has been speculating. Why now, now the balance of commentary is swinging a little the other way, should WP be reluctant to report this? Paul Beardsell 22:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

WP does not have a stake in this, except to report whatever is reliable and neutral at any given point. So the 'balance' may swing arbitrarily depending on the available evidence. What we do want to avoid is a rush to judgment, which many news publications have done in this case. Let's take it one verifiable step at a time. Nameless allegations printed in papers, with a poor track record, are not my idea of WP:BLP-level reliability. And the Brazillian controllers deserve just as much presumption of innocence as the Legacy crew, until the facts are in. Crum375 23:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] alleged radio (voice) failure

I can't find a reference where the Embraer pilots say there was any radio failure. Anyone? Paul Beardsell 08:35, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

There are multiple references in the Brazilian press (which we include in the article) to the Legacy crew asserting in their depositions that they lost comm prior to the collision. In fact, they had to relay via a cargo flight to coordinate their emergency landing at Cachimbo. This is not a controversial issue, to the best of my knowledge. Crum375 13:14, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Concur with Crum.--Dali-Llama 21:38, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I used AltaVista Babel Fish to translate the text of the cited reference number 19. I quote one sentence from that translation: "The pilots had affirmed that they had not turned aside themselves from the flight route and at the moment of the shock with Boeing of the Goal they kept contact with the tower of Brasilia." Where are these "multiple references"? Paul Beardsell 07:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I added another reference, that gives some more detail. We'll need to get the full deposition and/or the ATC tapes to get the complete picture, I suspect. Crum375 12:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ANAC photo copyright

Does anyone know if Brazil has a similar law to the US where government photos are free of copyright? What about specifically the photo here, from the ANAC site, of the CVR memory module? It would great to have the image in the article, like that of the FDR, if we can get it. Crum375 00:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Never mind - found it in the Agência Brasil site (somehow missed it before), and it was already on the Portuguese WP. Crum375 00:50, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Heads-up

Just to let everyone know, the preliminary report on the crash is set to be released on Thursday. The report will point out the operational, technical and human factors that played a part in the accident (in the same way the FAA reports are usually structured). Press reports have already indicated the mix of factors is similar to what we've put in the article. It'll be nice put some affirmations on it, though. The final report is set to be released in the second half of 2007, but is only expected to elaborate on the findings of the preliminary reports (IE: don't expect any plot twists).--Dali-Llama 04:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing information

initial pre-takeoff IFR clearance given to the Legacy was "N600XL, Clear, 370, Manaus", clearing the Legacy to climb and maintain FL370 all the way to Manaus, and superseding the altitudes filed in the original flight plan

I am including a fact checking required reference there, because the current references only report laymen’s words, nothing authoritative to that effect. No one is questioning the clearance, but the air authorities in Brazil say that the original flight plan and the direction of the flight both should supersede the clearance, requiring the pilots to either question the clearance or stick to the plan.

We do include a reference for that clearance so adding 'fact' to it would be incorrect. OTOH, I agree that getting the clearance in the form of an official ATC communication transcript, e.g. with timestamps, vs. a news report, would be better, and I hope we get that version soon. As far as your point about "air authorities in Brazil say that the original flight plan and the direction of the flight both should supersede the clearance", I have never heard any 'aviation authority' say that. In Brazil, that would be ANAC, and I doubt they would state something that clearly contradicts the ICAO and international aviation regulations (including I am sure the Brazilian ones, we do have an online reference for those also). According to the international, ICAO, and US FAA regulations, it is the clearance or instruction at any given moment that supersedes any previous instruction, clearance or flight plan. A flight crew may optionally question the new clearance, but generally don't, in the assumption that some new situation requires new routing and/or altitudes. Crum375 18:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The ICAO (international) and FAA regulations differ. It seems that the pilots were following FAA rules outside of the US, where the ICAO ones apply. The text I amended also assume FAA rules are universal. Leandro GFC Dutra 14:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

They do differ somewhat but they are a lot closer than they are different. What rule are you referring to specifically? Citation required. Paul Beardsell 17:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Also to clarify, there is no rule that a flight crew must question a clearance, unless it is very clearly and plainly illegal or unsafe. The contention in the version I reverted, that a crew must question a routine ATC clearance is not sourced by any reliable aviation agency to my knowledge. Crum375 19:18, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, these references you mean should be precisely cited in notes to the text, not just generally referred to in this discussion page. Also, if you take the time to read the references that are that, this is precisely what is being alleged by the Brazilian authorities. So I am reverting your reversal. Leandro GFC Dutra 19:29, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

At this point, the version I reverted to does not make any claims about Brazilian aviation regulations. It only states what the Legacy crew did, based on the clearance they received. If at some future point we discover a properly sourced reference that says all those things you state, we can include it. Note that this article deals with living people, hence it must follow the WP:BLP sourcing rules. We cannot use off-the-record statements by nameless persons alleging malfeasance by living people as a source in this situation. Crum375 19:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preliminary report released to press

Available here (PowerPoint warning), in Portuguese (emphasis on preliminary). I have also done some tense changes to some slightly outdated sections of the article. Fvasconcellos 11:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Awesome! Thank you!--Dali-Llama 20:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Welcome. Fvasconcellos 12:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commission structure

A question to Brazil and Portuguese experts: does anyone know what position Col. Rufino Antonio da Silva Ferreira holds, if any, within CENIPA? Looking in the CENIPA web site, I can't find him or the commission among the names in the CENIPA org chart. Is this a temporary assignment or position? What is the exact relationships between CENIPA and the commission? I realize it's all part of the Brazilian air force, as is much of the aviation system there as a whole, but this particular relationship is very unclear to me. Note that in the PPT report, on the bottom of the first slide, there is "Cel. Rufino/CENIPA" as author. Does 'slash' mean "member of", "working with", "attached to" or what? Crum375 22:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Answering my own question, I found the info in the Agencia Brasil article, which states that Col. Rufino Antonio da Silva Ferreira is the head of the Inquiry Division of CENIPA. For some reason I couldn't find that in the CENIPA org chart. Crum375 23:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prelimary report details

I have added some more facts from the report. I think that just like CENIPA is doing, we should try to concentrate on the hard facts at this point. Speculations, especially when based on unreliable sources, should be minimized or eliminated, as this article involves living persons, and as such should conform to WP:BLP highest quality sourcing standards. Crum375 15:30, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question about the collision point

The preliminary report has the apparent coordinates of the collision point (CP), which it says is 10°44'S, 53°31'W, on top of a graphic slide of the collision sequence. Unfortunately, these coordinates don't make sense, as compared to the wreckage site (WS) coords we previously received as 10°29′S 53°15′W, and when compared to the two fixes (per the DOD chart) that bracketed the WS, Nabol (10°33.7′S 53°11.8′W) and Istar (10°20.2′S 53°26.5′W). The coords of the WS seem to lie roughly between Istar and Nabol, roughly 20km nw of Nabol. What doesn't make sense is the CP coords: it is clearly south of Nabol and west of Istar. Bottom line: someone somewhere is confused. It could easily be me, so please check me and find the bug. Normally government agencies are very meticulous with numbers and coordinates, so I am very perplexed. Crum375 01:49, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

37000 ft = 6 nautical miles. Glide angle 7:1 => 42 nautical miles. 1 minute of latitude = 1 nautical mile. Therefore difference between location of collision and location of wreck may differ by up to 42 minutes of lat and/or long. Paul Beardsell 09:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)