Talk:Joan Crawford

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This talk page is for discussion of the article about actress Joan Crawford, which begins at the bottom. Please post new entries at the top, above the last entry. Sign your entry by typing four tildes (a tilde is the ~ symbol), leaving no spaces between, thus ~~~~, which is automatically converted to a name and date.

Contents 1 Alfred N. Steele 2 Edits to article 3 Later Roles "Menial"? 4 Some details... 5 Joan's date of birth - the sequel 6 What should we say for her date of birth? 7 Lesbianism 8 Gay Icon Project 9 Long Filmography 10 Source? 11 Source? - again 12 Year of birth

[edit] Alfred N. Steele

Didn't he get married w/ Ms. Crawford on January 14, 1956 like mentioned on Find-A-Grave. Lincher 22:15, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits to article

I've made a few additions to the career section of this article. I thought it would be interesting to highlight the various ups and downs of her career, as well as document the process through which her various film personae emerged over the years.

I also restructured it a bit, so that the discussion of her film career all came in one section, with another section devoted to her personal life.Reichert 22:31, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Later Roles "Menial"?

Is it really appropriate to say (in "Later Years") that her roles between her Warner's glory days and Baby Jane were "menial"? Even in pictures such as Best of Everything, whatever one can say about the actual quality of the films (and most are better, to be NPOV, than their reputation suggests), the roles she played were either outright star parts or at least highly featured supporting ones. It's not like she was playing bits.... (Robertissimo 20 Jan 2006)

I agree and have reworded the section. I also removed some other POV comments. Did you know that by signing four tildes - a tilde is ~ at the end of your comment it will add you user name and date? That makes it easier for people replying to know who made a comment, and how recently. Rossrs 01:56, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Mea culpa! I did indeed know that, but was being more than usually scatterbrained; the above is my whining. Thanks for your elegant revisions, and the reminder. I wonder if there is some way -- perhaps from drawing on comments made after Crawford's death by friends or biographers -- that could indicate the indomitable way she sailed through her later performances, never giving any indication that things like Berserk were any less worthy than Grand Hotel... Robertissimo 04:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll see what I can find. That's started me thinking that the article as a whole would benefit from some comments from critics/costars etc. throughout her career. There's also some comments from people following publication of Mommie Dearest (for and against) and I can also recall Bette Davis (of all people) making some very positive remarks about Crawford as an actress. I think quotes are very useful in making a point - if it's a valid comment attributed to someone of note, it prevents POV from creeping into the article. Rossrs 05:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some details...

Joan became a real star before the 20s were over, her costarring with MGMs top male actors and her imprints at Graumans Chinese Theatre (1929) attest to that. The prior lead paragraph suggests she gained popularity later in the 1930s. She was never trained as a dancer, she was self trained, and when initially signed to contract she was unknown and reportedly unnoticed by management until later that year ('25), when a contest was held for her new name. It wasn't until 1928 and "our dancing daughters" that MGM realized she would make a good flapper. (Brettsomers 6 Jan 2006)

[edit] Joan's date of birth - the sequel

To the anon that keeps reverting Crawford's birth year - I can not believe that the year of Crawford's birth is shaping into an edit war. Stop it now, please.

There is NO categorical evidence for her year of birth to the best of my knowledge. This is because a birth certificate does not exist. A 1910 census shows her as being 5 years of age. Simple arithmetic puts her year of birth therefore as 1905. I have added a source for this. It's been removed, well I'm putting it back. As per Manual of style-Dates of birth and death I have put a "c." before her year of birth, because I accept that it is not certain she was born in 1905, though there is more evidence supporting 1905 than 1904. You should also accept that it's not certain she was born in 1904, or 1906, 1907, 1908 or any other year. If you wish to prove me wrong, that's fine with me, but understand that I am inviting you to prove me wrong. You need to show acceptable evidence to support your view. The only "evidence" I can find is flimsy, I admit, but it's more than anyone else has cited.

Don't remove a sourced piece of information and replace it with an unsourced piece of information. Better still, participate in discussion if you have a point of view you want to convey, and I'll be happy to discuss it further, but please stop anonymously reverting information because you disagree with it.

Please also note that Hal LeSueur (her brother) was (according to his Wikipedia article) born September 3, 1903. If this is true, Joan's birth in 1904 was only 6 months later. Does that seem likely? Perhaps this means Hal wasn't born in 1903 after all, but perhaps it means Joan wasn't born in 1904. Either way, it makes the arbitrary selection of any birth date for her, even more unacceptable. Rossrs 02:42, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What should we say for her date of birth?

Is she 100? 99? Does it matter? Probably not, but .....

I'm interested in the murky issue of Joan Crawford's date of birth, and notice it's been recently changed here to 1906.

It's an odd situation and various sources have different dates.

• The book Joan Crawford: The Last Word by Fred Lawrence Guiles ISBN 1857932684 gives 1905 based on the author's "research" though he doesn't define what his "research" was.
• Joan Crawford at the Internet Movie Database gives 1904.
• Genealogy Mag article assumes birth date to be 1905 based on young Lucille LeSueur being aged 5 in a 1910 census (April, which is after her birthday in March). This is arguably the most authoritative source.
• Same article as above quotes Charles Kidd, in Debrett Goes to Hollywood, saying Lucille was probably born in 1904.
• Standard Times online quotes author Karen Swenson, who is researching for a Joan Crawford biography, as saying she believes Crawford was born in 1904 based on the timing of Crawford's birth in relation to other events which can be somewhat more easily verified. (Also states San Angelo as a more likely place of birth than San Antonio).

who knew Crawford and wrote about her after her death says that San Antonio did not keep birth records until 1908 - Crawford therefore chose 1908 as her official year of birth simply because it was the earliest birth date she could claim without anyone being able to contradict. He says her date of birth could be anywhere between 1904 and 1908 depending on who you believe.

I find it all interesting and a bit of a mystery - not a solvable one probably - and now 1906 is thrown into the mix, so I'm just curious.

Perhaps the article should not attempt to provide a definitive birth date, but say c. 190- (whatever shows to be the most substantiated date - personally I think c. 1905 based on the 1910 census unless anyone can suggest a more likely option) with perhaps a sentence or two about the doubt about the date. Any suggestions? Rossrs 09:52, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

OK, well as someone has reverted this back to 1905, have added a paragraph qualifying the basis for this determination along with citing the source. Have changed to c. 1905 in line with Manual of Style, because we can't be, and probably never will be, absolutely certain.Rossrs 12:18, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Joan was born in 1904 deal with it!! (Unsigned comment by User:Lalonde)

You need to offer some kind of evidence. Rossrs 20:36, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lesbianism

Should there be some mention of the strong evidence that she had affairs with women, namely the remarks to that effect by other stars in Boze Hadleigh's book Hollywood Lesbians, and the tapes that came to light in late 2004 of Marilyn Monroe talking to a therapist in which she said she'd had sex with Crawford but didn't really like it? And how should the information be presented? (70.16.132.222 31 May 2005)

[edit] Gay Icon Project

In my effort to merge the now-deleted list from the article Gay icon to the Gay icons category, I have added this page to the category. I engaged in this effort as a "human script," adding everyone from the list to the category, bypassing the fact-checking stage. That is what I am relying on you to do. Please check the article Gay icon and make a judgment as to whether this person or group fits the category. By distributing this task from the regular editors of one article to the regular editors of several articles, I believe that the task of fact-checking this information can be expedited. Thank you very much. Philwelch 20:21, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

• Yes, Joan Crawford is very much a gay icon. Back when she was still making film she was very popular in the gay community and continued to be a favorite in that group even after her death. The fact that entertainers like Charles Pierce would incorporate her persona into his act, as well as the MANY "Mommie Dearest" parties held by gay men yearly, prove that she is indeed a remaining gay icon. Artemisboy 20:43, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Long Filmography

The filmography is a little lengthy and replicated on the IMDb link. I think it'd be more useful to list maybe about 20 of her most notable roles. I don't know much about Crawford. Anyone else care to take a shot at trimming it? —Frecklefoot 20:51, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Source?

Can I get a source for these two paragraphs? They make it sound as if Bette Davis was the bitch and Joan Crawford was the poor innocent victim, and knowing both ladies, I HIGHLY doubt either of those two was as innocent as Mary and her little lamb.

By the early 1960s, Crawford's status in motion pictures had diminished significantly. She managed to reverse this trend one last time when she accepted the role of Blanche Hudson in the low-budget, but highly successful, What Ever Happened to Baby Jane? (1962), directed by Robert Aldrich. She played the part of a physically disabled woman, a former A-list movie star in conflict with her demented sister. Despite their earlier tensions on the Warners lot, Crawford suggested Bette Davis for the role of Jane.

Davis immediately started taking over the set and throwing her weight around, as if she was the producer, director and big boss, and Crawford opposed her authority. The actresses reportedly mutually detested each other, although Davis, who was also famous for her feuds and rivalries with dissenting performers, was the more aggressive in her contempt.

Mike H. That's hot 20:41, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Source? - again

I have also removed this paragraph. User:Mike Halterman has asked for a source, and this is a perfectly reasonable request. Please don't simply ignore it and restore it to the article.

I have biographies of Davis and of Crawford and well as general reference books relating to films. There is nothing in any of them to say that Davis played the diva. The director Robert Aldrich is on record as saying that he was warned about both actresses before filming started but, to his surprise, they were generally professional and cordial to each other on-set. Their mutual dislike of each other did not display itself because, as he says, they both realized how crucial the film was for them and did not want to spoil what might be their last chance. Biographies of Bette Davis say generally the same thing - Davis's vitriol did not display itself until Crawford lobbied against her Oscar nomination. Likewise Crawford tolerated Davis until Davis quoted a studio head as describing them as "those old broads" in an interview. Crawford misinterpreted that Davis was quoting someone else, and was offended at Davis doing this after Crawford believed that they had gotten along together fairly well during filming. This is all fairly consistent in the material I have, so it's reasonable to ask for a source to be provided if something totally opposite is being said.

Also the paragraph is quite poorly written. "Big boss" is not encyclopedic but even apart from that it's poorly structured. If I believed it was accurate, I would simply rewrite it, but as I don't, I've removed it.

The paragraph was :

"Davis immediately started taking over the set and throwing her weight around, as if she was the producer, director and big boss, and Crawford opposed her authority. The actresses reportedly mutually detested each other, although Davis, who was also famous for her feuds and rivalries with dissenting performers, was the more aggressive in her contempt."

Thanks Rossrs 14:27, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Year of birth

The year of birth has been established as 1905 as per edit page comments citing CENSUS RECORDS; however some fly-by-night vandal changed it back in the text (without correcting the category). I changed it back and if this keeps recurring the page will need to be protected or someone blocked.

Ciociabasia 21:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)