Talk:Julius Caesar

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Contents 1 Templates 2 Quotation 3 Alea Iacta Est 4 Imperator? 5 JULIUS CAESAR -A GENIUS? 6 Iacta alea est 7 Should this article still be featured? 8 Julius Caesar 18th century bronze bust (Duxén collection) 9 Composition of images changed 10 Getting back to featured article 11 About caesar's hair. 12 Level of Caesar's military reputation. 13 Caesar's source of money 14 Failed GA 14.1 Passed GA 15 Audio Version? 16 More on Caesar's career 17 Further reading 18 This is getting ridiculous 19 Crime with Cleopatra? 20 Archives 21 Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar 22 Caesar on Sci-Fi 23 Caesar and Sulla 24 request for semi-protection 25 eulogy

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[edit] Quotation

Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into a patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood, just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no need in seizing the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all of their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar.

--Gaius Julius Caesar

Where on earth does this quotation I removed from the end of the entry come from? I'm googling it and finding it everywhere (mainly on slightly odd political sites); NONE of the occurrences I have found so far give any more information than the tag line: --Gaius Julius Caesar. No source. It is unlikely to have been a statement of Caesar's - unless these are words put into his mouth by modern playwrights! Let me point out that Romans were not big users of drums - their martial music was wind-based (horns, flutes, etc.). MichaelTinkler

• You've made me curious. The people that quote it seem to take it as Gospel that Julius Caesar did say this, but none has dug any deeper. Styllistically, I understood that Julius's style was fairly straightforward, and that made him a good example for students of Latin. The style for this, allowing for the peculiarities of the translator, still seems terribly florid. The English style is not of the 20th century. If Julius did write this, the end suggests that it was late in his life. Eclecticology

What does "The Die is Cast" mean?

The Die is Cast can refer to two things. One is that the die cast in the air and no one knows the outcome, or that the die have already landed and that he cannot change the outcome.User:202.169.221.108 11:19, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

• This quotation paints a picture of a modern dictatorship with propaganda, nationalistic appeals, "seizing" of "rights". In Caesar's time it was all tied up in being thought a god and having good family connections, not the modern style at all (Jr. Bush notwithstanding). In other words, this doesn't really pass the smell test. It is also worth pointing out that this purported strategy did not work for Caesar. I would be interested both in a clear attribution of this remark and also any serious indication that Caesar's policies pursued this line Ortolan88

• I had thought it might be from Plutarch, but haven't managed to find it there. However, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a quotation from one of Caesar's works - or rather, from a translation of one of his works, and this is an important point. It's meaningless to say that Caesar's style was simple and this English version is "florid", simply because a translator can translate things into florid or simple language as the urge takes them. A second important point to note is that Roman historians - and this includes Caesar himself - treated historiography as a literary genre. Because the quotation is in the first person, it would be a speech put into Caesar's mouth by the writer (which could be Caesar himself), but the reader is not expected to believe that it is word-for-word the speech that was actually made on that occasion. Today we would call this poetic licence. So it's not worth getting all worked up about, except insofar that it would be nice to know where it came from. I can't find it in a dictionary of quotations. Deb

• The use of the phrase "And I am Caesar" makes it unlikely to have been said by Julius Caesar; the use of the term "Caesar" to denote a high office was not instituted until after the reign of Augustus (and even then, it denoted a minor office, subordinate to the emperor, who was referred to as Augustus in Latin or Basileus in Greek --- in the time of Diocletian the senior emperors were called "Augustus" and the junior emperors "Caesar"). In Julius Caesar's day, it was a name, nothing more; the wording would have made no sense at that time.

• "Caesar neither said that nor did that. Armies were assembled by granting soldiers pillage rights, pensions and land in conquered lands upon retirement. The concept of patriotism among the populace as we know it today did not exist, nor did individual rights in the modern sense. It was essentially a class/caste system with no rights other than those assigned by the state or purchased through wealth." (http://www.shenandoahvalley.com/cgi-bin/wwwboard/messages/24.html)
• The idea that patriotism is a modern concept is ridicilous. Patriotism, love for ones country or people, is probably as old as civilization itself. What is new is nationalism in its intellectualized form.

The claim that Roman citizens of the Republic lacked rights is also very wrong. They did have one, big right: Freedom!

• I haven't read all of Caesar's works, but "De Bello Gallica" (the Gaulish Wars) is written entirely in the third person; Caesar never, ever refers to himself as "I". Perhaps this quotation is from Shakespeare's "Julius Caesar". --Charlie

• According to this piece in Snopes.com it isn't in any known work of Caesar or Shakespeare and first appeared on the Internet last year. Ortolan88

• Discussion

http://www.mojosdailygrind.com/news/quotes.html

• This quote was most likely invented by a Moorean pseudo-intellectual college weenie with no grasp of history --66.120.157.194 09:34, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• This quote's false attribution to Caesar has been debunked by Snopes: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/caesar.htm.

• Has anyone considered it might be from the HBO Rome series? We should check the scripts.--Cjcaesar 13:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

• I don't recall it from any episode of HBO's Rome, and I love that show. It could, I suppose, be a piece cut from one of the scripts before production, but I'd tend to doubt it. --ADB

It was definitely not something from his accounts of the two wars. Perhaps it is from that mid 1st century AD poet who admired Pompey so much. I remember reading similiar things being put into Caesar's mouth from him, though his works are considered but literary. 11:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)Licinius

It's exceedingly hard to prove a negative, which is why this piece of garbage is so dishonest. It bears all the earmarks, however, of a fabrication of our own time, and suddenly appeared around the time of the beginning of the Iraq war. Not only is is not in Caesar or any Latin author, I'd be very, very surprised if it could be find in anything at all written before 1990. Bill 17:59, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Well in my opionion, know the facts, get them right, and if you cant come up with anything and if it isnt important, ignore it. Hooray for bad grammer and spelling!

Actually, the quote sees to be a rephrasing of a monologue found in Julius Caesar. Just check the Wikiquote and Wikisource pages; it's there. George "Skrooball" Reeves 01:00, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I know, I can't believe it, either. George "Skrooball" Reeves 01:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Except that it's a forgery. A vandal had inserted a version of this spurious quote into the "Cowards die many times before their deaths" speech in Act 2, Scene 2 of the Wikisource text (and copied it to Wikiquote), but it's completely out of place there and not in my copy of the Complete Works, so I've removed it from both sites. Perils of the internet, and the Wiki. --Nicknack009 11:44, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alea Iacta Est

I've heard that the words alea iacta est according to the historian Plutarch were actually put by Caesar in Greek, quoting a greek play popular at the time (much the way we quote our favourite movie oneliners these days), does anyone know the exact source in Plutarch for this statement, the corresponding Greek wording, and the play and playwright supposedly quoted? -- Jörgen Nixdorf

Quick digging in electronic texts found the answer. I'm adding it to the main page so you can see this for yourselves. -- Jörgen Nixdorf

Still looking for the name of the quoted play though, please help out if you can. -- Jörgen Nixdorf

No one appears to be able to cite anything beyond the fact that it was Greek, translated to "let the dice fly high" (rather than "the die is cast", Suetonius's version), and a line from Menander. -- User:Publius

Be all of which as it may, the claim in the article on Julius Caesar that "alea jacta est" translates to "the die must be cast" is incorrect. It really is just "the die is cast"--the Latin is pretty simple and there's no other way to translate it. Would somebody who has access change that? -- Nathaniel Stetson

Quite right. --D. Webb 01:56, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Caesar said "alea iacta esto", which indeed translates to "the die shall be cast", before he crossed the Rubicon. Besides that, I agree that he said this in Greek, for every well-educated Roman used the Greek language. Cheers, Ralf

[edit] Imperator?

There's no mention of Caesar as an Imperator, though I know he was (the title only took on the meaning of Emperor later on). Unfortunately, I don't know the details nor when he was hailed as Imperator, so I can't really add to it with my current knowledge. Jsan 00:45, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

To be hailed Imperator on the field of battle was the requirement for a general to achieve a Triumph. Caesar was hailed Imperator during his Spanish campaigns, but was unable to claim his triumph because of political maneuvering (he wanted to stand for Consul, for which he had to register in person, but if he crossed the Pomerium he lost his Imperium, which meant he lost his Triumph.). Winjer 18:46, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's own article on 'Imperator', this Gaius Julius Caesar was twice an imperator- in 60 BC and again in 40 BC. However, he never claimed a triumph. He had bigger things to do.Rev. James Triggs 21:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] JULIUS CAESAR -A GENIUS?

It would seem to be considering his achievements, literary, generalship,engineering,law and politics, this is one ancient Roman who has done it all. His one failing was his big fat ego which led to his death. A genius nonetheless.

--Actually, I would say it was the multiple stab wounds that led to his death. ;-)

--It could also be argued that he died due to his trust in others and his sense of duty to Rome. I could be wrong, but didn't Artemidorus try to warn him, but he said that personal matters come after Rome? and shouldn't Caeser have an honour guard or something similar? Firestorm 00:36, Apr 30, 2005 (UTC)

He was entitled to lictors nad German guards, but didn't bother with them. He considered it better to just accept death when it came than to be constantly paranoid and obsessed over stopping it (the night of March 14th, at a party, Caesar even said that his preferred form of death was fast, violent, and unexpected). He also believed that no one would dare assassinate him, as it would lead to renewed civil strife, a lose-lose situation. Kuralyov 04:24, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

-Don't neglect the fact that he was multilingual. He was fluent in not only Latin and Greek but in Hebrew and several dialects of Gaulic and German languages and possibly later leanred Egyptian.

Caesar achieved very great things in his lifetime, more than another singular roman did before or after. However Caesar had his faults in his ability to trust people after they turn on him before e.g. Brutus. He was very good in all things ancient roman culture desired, but a question if he is a genius is would he survive in a different situation persay in an alexander the great battle fighting more numerous and better ability troops. Caesar should be held as a genius because he brought peace after so many continous wars of civil strife. His biggest mistake was getting murdered after dismissing his lictors, with his death there erupted another civil war. In conclusion he was a genius but all geniuses make mistakes. --Alexstorer 22:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be fair to say, then, that he is considered to be a genius? After all, historical accounts are unclear, given the bias of ancient authors due to the political situation of the times. (i.e. You don't bad-mouth the Emperor's dead uncle)--Ironlion45 16:53, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Julius Caesar was a true military genius and he fared pretty well in other aspects of his life. It would indeed be fair to say that he was a genius. In fact, he is one of the Nine Worthies. He did make mistakes, like trusting certain people, but that was because he believed that they too wanted to help the Roman Republic. Living up to the ideals of the Republic is hardly a mistake, even if it caused his death and a civil war that eventually lead to the decline of the Roman People as proper leadership was not there. His accomplishments speak for themselves.Rev. James Triggs 21:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, I would agree that Caesar was indeed a genius, given his military and political accomplishments. But the fact remains that we should not be too fast in our praise of him; he was a power hungry tyrant who commited genocide on the people of Gaul and it was his insatiable lust for power that led to a bloody civil war and, later, his own death. He was a genius, but one on the same level as Hitler; it is only because we are looking on it 2000 years later that this man is idolized rather than denounced as a murderer and an utter disgrace to the Republic. He seized power by force and was clearly hated by a large proportion of the Senate, to whom he left no choice but to murder him if they wanted to restore the Republic. Also, it should be mentioned that the position of Dictator was only available by Roman law for a period of a few months and only during a period of crisis. The truth is that Caesar was a genius but no hero, and it annoys me when people speak so much praise of him, as stated above, because he deserves nothing more than contempt as a man who flouted the laws of the Republic and has the blood of millions on his hands.

Unmarked person, you have a point. But you neglect the fact that he was loved by the majority of the soldiers and the common people. The Senators hated him (rightfully so) because of his lust for power. But whilst he does deserve contempt for that, he should not be placed on Hitler's level; unlike Hitler, Caesar actually did some good changes- even though some were quickly eliminated. Besides, Caesar changed political structure; he changed the course of history. Therefore, if he is to be places as an enlightened despot (which he was) he, arguably ranks above Hitler. After all, this is 2000 years on; we do not neccessarily have all the information. Still, I probably have misjudged Caesar; such is the problem with matrys. As for the blood of millions, many leaders have killed many In WWII, Hitler massacred 12 million people in the Holocaust. But Winston Churchill, due to his part, along with the other allies, killed millions as well. Intent is the deciding factor. If the Jews had contracted a terrible disease, for example, ebola, would it be considered genocide-or euathanasia? Besides, Caesar was still better than many other rulers- Caesar did not have to put up with rebellions. Rev. James Triggs 20:28, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Iacta alea est

I can't help feeling that the usual translation "The die is cast" gives a wholly misleading impression to the modern ear. (I've changed the translation from the unwarranted subjunctive; the Greek quote from Menander was in the subjunctive, but the Latin is indicative and is by far the more widely quoted.)

A better, if somehat demotic, translation would be "The bet's on." Djnjwd 22:34, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

That's very, very good. Bill 17:23, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

I really believe that keeping "The die is cast" would be preferable. I understand your desire to modernize the phrase and show off your knowledge of this dead language, but it was a common expression of the day. Keeping it as "The die is cast" helps to give the reader a further insight into the times. Furthermore, "The bet's on" isn't any clearer than the previous phrase.

where "iacta alea est" comes from? it is "alea iacta est", "alea"=the die "iacta est"=has been thrown, there is no sense in the inversion. somebody can answer? --Zimbricchio 03:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It's from Suetonius - here's a link to the Latin, which says "Iacta alea est". Latin, because of its inflections, was very flexible in word order, so there's no difference in meaning between "alea iacta est" and "iacta alea est", except perhaps an added emphasis on "iacta". --Nicknack009 06:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Should this article still be featured?

The previous FA nomination for this article was approved in 2003 with only two votes. The current state of the article and the few disagreements over content go against the spirit of some of the points in Wikipedia:What is a featured article. The question thus is: Does this article still have FA quality? Personally I don't think so, but I'd like to hear some comments before doing something that may potentially annoy a lot of people. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 17:16, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Due to the lack of discussion I'm taking this to WP:FARC. Maybe a wider exposure will settle the matter definitely. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ | Esperanza 23:15, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Julius Caesar 18th century bronze bust (Duxén collection)

(05/11/19)

Dear editors , contributors and readers of Wikipedia!

Recently I added a photograph of an late 18th century Julius Caesar bronze bust, from my own private collection. I own the bronze bust and have taken the photograph myself, so no copyright problem. I have listed it as fair use, since I allow anybody that want to display the picture to do so, the only thing I ask for, is that it is mentioned that the bust is from my private collection. I thought the photograpgh was an great addition to the article, since there wasn't any bronze bust's pictured in the article until now, and the bust is sculptured after an antique original, so it bears Caesar's traditional likeness. I myself love this bust and thought it wouldn't be more than right that more people could enjoy it, at least by a picture. This is my first contribution to Wikipedia and I hope it will be appreciated, let me know your concerns and what you think about it. --Jduxen

My concern is the license and the edit war revolving around it (please check Creative Commons License for a hint how to properly license the picture, I'd suggest by-nc-sa). Attribution to your collection is in the picture, and on the image description page. And now you insist on a third mentioning in the caption? Sorry, but no, this is not encyclopedically relevant information for the reader, but smells a bit like vanity. Sorry for being so blunt, but on top of it all the picture is not all that great, frontal lighting makes it hard to make out the 3d structure of the bust and it looks rather dark. --Dschwen 11:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dschwen!

Thanks for your interest in this picture. Yes, I know that it seems like vanity, but let me know why I must insist that the attribution should be in the caption. If you search the internet for bronze bust of Julius Caesar, you arrive at many pages, which have only copied Wikipedias main article of Julius Caesar, and therefore my attribution isn't there, anywhere on the site. To save me some very time consuming work, having to email all these sites and having them adding the subtitle of my bust, or removing the bust completely. The subtitle below my Caesar bronze bust, must be displayed also on the Julius Caesar main article on Wikipedia. And this is because I don't want it's list of reference to be lost, so that students of Roman history doing works about famous Romans, can't be able to pinpoint the bust's provenance. And on those sites it simply have been copied from Wikipedia, sometime has downsized it and made it so blurry, that the attribution on the picture itself could not be interpreted. I will again revert to the original setting, and I hope this will be fine with you. If not, I look forward to talking with you again.

Thanks for taking your time and writing your concerns!

Sincerely: --Jduxen 21 January 2006

I see your concerns.

1. The licensing of your picture is flawed. Please check the Creative Commons license.
2. If you disagree with contibution under an accepted licence the only alternative is to withdraw the contribution.
3. The quality of the picture has not been adressed, what about a retake with propper lighting? Maybe also a slight variation of the angle? --Dschwen 12:36, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dschwen!

I had it licensed before under Creative Common license, but another Wikipedia user thought my criterias would be better represented under a common copyright. Could you please explain what the difference would between a common copyright and Creative Commons license for my picture? Sure, I could take another picture of it. The thing is that the more direct lightning on the bust, it refelcts back and the picture get's spoiled. Do you have any idea's on how to do a remake with proper lightning? How much should the angle be changed do you think? You don't mean a profile picture of the bust?

Thanks for interesting yourself in this!

Sincerely: --Jduxen 21 January 2006

The point is that your idea of a license, requiring an attribution in the caption is incompatible with wikipedia. No one knows a Jonas Duxén, it distracts the reader adds nothing to the value of the article. The consequence is to remove the picture if you cannot live with a free license like the contributors of the other 300000 images. --Dschwen 14:18, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Dschwen!

That is very strange, because it has been nominated for removal before in it's initial phase because of the attribution, but was approved by an moderator after I had changed it to the Copyright it has now. I must also make you aware of, that at the Julius Caesar page, you could clearly see that the picture after mine, showing a picture from a bust of Julius Caesar from the British Museum, has an subtitle with it's complete provenance (even more lenghty than mine). And it says: "Julius Caesar, depicted from the bust in the British Museum, in Cassell's History of England (1902)." This is the subtitle below the picture on the Julius Caesar article, and as you could see it clearly states the provenance of the bust. Wouldn't this also then be incompatible with Wikipedia? I must ask you to not change the subtitle below my bronze bust, if you do, you tamper with the copyright and I believe that tampering with copyright isn't allowed on Wikipedia, nor any other place on the internet I am aware of. You are very welcome to nominate the picture for deletion with a good reason, so could a moderator again settle the case.

Thanks for your replies!

Sincerely: --Jduxen 21 January 2006

Dschwen, could you please cite the policy that explicitly says that "requiring an attribution in the caption is incompatible with wikipedia"? See for instance Black Seminoles which is a Featured Article and has attribution on the captions of some illustrations. Thank you. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 18:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Heh, I was reading up on this matter just after I posted my message :-). And actually Wikipedia:Captions allows listing the present location of the depicted object in parenthesis. So maybe I was a little harsh stating it is incompatible. But fact is the attribution is given on the Image description page, and a caption should provide only relevant information to the reader. Anyway, I'm not entirely sure whether this image and its controversial license is worth it anyhow or if replacement by this image would be a better solution. --Dschwen 22:19, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

The current license (at least as of this version) only has the condition of attribution. Nothing wrong with that since many Creative Commons also have that requirement. Mirrors sometimes don't download image description pages, so Jduxen's concern is legitimate. And the image is in fact quite worth it. This might surprise you, but there are not many bronze casts of Caesar's bust out there. This is a storm in a teacup, in my opinion, which is a real shame because we are talking about legitimate, useful content and not somebody's favorite-TV-series fancruft. -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 22:59, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'll take your word for it since I can only decide on formal arguments. If the image is worth it on a scentific basis and not easitly replacable it's fine be me. Sorry for stirring the matter up, but at least we had a comprehensive discussion now after the preceding edit battle. --Dschwen 23:16, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Rune Welsh and Dschwen!

Rune Welsh, you bring forth my points much better than I did, thank you for taking your time and engaging yourself in this. Dschwen, I also thank you for engaging yourself in this and as you said, at least we had a comprehensive discussion about it. I hope this editing "battle" would now be over, and (I say this to all Wikipedians); If you do not like the picture and it's attribution, you are totally free to give a good reason and nominate it for removal, but you can't interfere with the copyright and remove the attribution below the bust. Thanks again for engaging yourself in this! Sincerely: --Jduxen 22 January 2006

To all those interested in this matter,

___I removed several times the name of the owner from the caption, and saw my edits reverted, so I feel related to this matter.

___What I want to point out, is that, according to me, the name of the owner should be removed from the caption, or, if the license says otherwise, the image should not be used on Wikipedia.

___My reasoning is that the caption should hold information on the image useful for the reader of the article. We should, therefore, avoid cluttering it with information not pertinent to the article, in order not to distract the reader. I think anyone will agree on this.

___Now, the point is, is knowing that the bust is in "Duxén collection" an information useful to the reader of the article "Julius Caesar"? As far as I know, the "Duxén collection" is not a museum as the "British Museum" of the next image, neither it is a private collection open to the public. As far as I understand, the bust is a private owned copy of some original. If I want to see the source for the drawing of the next image, I know I must go to London, at the British Museum. If I want to see the original, where should I look for it? Where is the "Duxén collection"?
___My answer is that the belonging of the bust to the "Duxén collection" is not a useful information to the reader; on the contrary, it clutters the caption, and should be removed.

___Obviously, the issue about the copyright remains. Jduxen wants, and has the right to require, that the image is credited to him/her. He/she does not believe that providing the credit in the image file and on the image itself is enough.

___So we have: (1) the need to remove the credit from the caption, since it does not carry information useful to the article; (2) the credit can't be removed from the article, since this is against the author will.

___According to me, the straighforward conclusion is that either (1) the author agrees to keep his/hers name only in the image page and on the image itself, or (2) the readers of the article will do without the image of a bronze bust on Caesar.

Best regards, Panairjdde 12:17, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Dschwen pointed out above that stating the location of the object is allowed in captions. This is part of a private collection, so obviously the name of the owner is going to be there. Maybe it warrants something more complete than "Duxén collection, XX country". The copyright description is clear and I don't see why this is more restrictive than some of the Creative Commons licenses out there. And the physical location of any object is always relevant information. For instance, there are a good deal of Medieval Manuscripts held in private collections that allow access to researchers. People wouldn't know they were there if these collections did not publicize the issue (as it happens, in fact, with many others, which is a shame I believe). -- Rune Welsh | ταλκ 12:33, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

As regards the location of this bust, let me cite myself:

"___My reasoning is that the caption should hold information on the image useful for the reader of the article. We should, therefore, avoid cluttering it with information not pertinent to the article, in order not to distract the reader. I think anyone will agree on this.

"___Now, the point is, is knowing that the bust is in "Duxén collection" an information useful to the reader of the article "Julius Caesar"? As far as I know, the "Duxén collection" is not a museum as the "British Museum" of the next image, neither it is a private collection open to the public. As far as I understand, the bust is a private owned copy of some original. If I want to see the source for the drawing of the next image, I know I must go to London, at the British Museum. If I want to see the original, where should I look for it? Where is the "Duxén collection"?

"___My answer is that the belonging of the bust to the "Duxén collection" is not a useful information to the reader; on the contrary, it clutters the caption, and should be removed."

As regards Medioeval manuscripts in private collections, those are, in common sense, originals, and you could be interested knowing where they are, while the bust is a copy. In the automobile article, as comparison, it would not make sense to put "from John Smith collection" in the caption of the Ford Taurus image, because milions of Ford Taurus exist. On the contrary, a reader would be interested in knowing that one of the few existing existing 1895 Benz Velo is located at Toyota Automobil Museum. So, I repeat my previous question, "is knowing that the bust is in "Duxén collection" an information useful to the reader of the article Julius Caesar?" If not, the citation should be removed, IMO.

Panairjdde 15:06, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I see no one is countering my points. If on 31 January 2006 no good points will be raised, I'll proceed in this way:

• If the author agrees, I'll remove the citation from the caption,
• if there is no permission from the author, I'll remove the image from the article.

Best regards, --Panairjdde 21:47, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear all of you, As a Wikipedia user and as a person that has researched on Julius Caesar for projects, it is indeed revelant information to state exactly where it is. And, since it happens to be in aprivate collection, it would be necessary to state this. Even if you do not state who the owner is, much like you would cite where it is if it is in a museum, you should state the location of this private collection. Any piece of information should be sourced. Without the caption, you are not even saying whether it is real or fake. Or even, if it is Julius Caesar- it could be a remarkable coincidence. Besides, readers do want to know about where these things are as it demonstrates the lasting appeal that Julius has. i hope this issue will be satisfactorily resolved. Rev. James Triggs 22:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Composition of images changed

(05/11/19)

I have changed the composition of the images, so when the reader first arrives at the article, they are greeted by two pictures of Caesar busts side at side. The text is not much effected by this, and the content box isn't moved at all. I believe that this way the space is used to it's max, and the initial impression for the reader is more colourful and grandious. As well as early on (if you are just doing a quick search of Caesar) get's two great likeness of him from sculptured antique busts or busts scuptured from antiques, and if they read on they have a clear picture of him in the head to start with. Let me know what you think of the modification. --Jduxen

I think it was the Thirteenth Legion that crossed the Rubicon with Caesar. Should this be changed?

[edit] Getting back to featured article

I'd like for this to get back to featured status...any regular editors willing to help me? I've already addressed a few of the complaints out there (the EasyTimeline which was requested, for one), and will do a lot more after final exams in a few weeks. But it'd be cool if anyone wanted to help. I'm pushing to get it FA soon, so it can (hopefully) be main paged on the Ides of March :) Ral315 (talk) 05:44, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Would anyone oppose the addition of the templatebox on the right? This article is linked from the Timeline of the Roman Empire. People reaching this page will find the timeline at the bottom of this article faster. And what about making names and events in the Julius Caesar timeline hyperlinks? --Dschwen 16:44, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] About caesar's hair.

What does it mean? Wikipedia is self-contradictory. To illustrate:

Caesar 

Caesar ... derived from "cai-" (of unknown meaning) from which Gaius also derives.

List of Roman praenomina 

Gaius (C.) ... From Etruscan Cae or Cai, meaning unknown.

Gaius (name) 

Gaius or Caius was a common Roman praenomen derived from Etruscan Cai, meaning " I am glad".

Caesar (title) 

"Caesar originally meant "hairy"

Etymology of the name of Julius Caesar

The cognomen "Caesar" means "hairy" and indicates that this branch of the family was conspicuous for having fine heads of hair

Roman name 

Julius Caesar's cognomen meant hairy, while he was balding

Lucius Julius Libo 

Caesar is Latin for hairy.

Right. The assertion that it means hairy raises an eyebrow as none of the articles asserting it cite any sources. squell 14:40, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

For "Caesar" we could cite Charlton T. Lewis & Charles Short, A Latin Dictionary, which says: [1]

caesărĭes , ēi, f. [kindr. with Sanscr. kēsa, coma, caesaries, Bopp, Gloss. p. 85, a] ,

I. a dark (acc. to Rom. taste, beautiful) head of hair, the hair (mostly poet.; only sing.).

Other Latin dictionaries give essentially the same definition. For "Gaius", Lewis & Short say only:[2]

At marriage festivals it was customary to call the bridegroom and bride Gaius and Gaia

The editor who wrote that "Gaius" comes from Etruscan "Cai" may have got it from [3] which doesn't give a reference. Hope this helps. Gdr 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Harry Thurston Peck cites three possible derivations:

The name Caesar was variously derived by the ancients, some assigning it directly to caedo, to denote that the first bearer of the name was cut from his mother's uterus by the “Caesarian” operation ( Plin. H. N. vii. 9 Plin. H. N., 7); and others explaining it from caesaries, because the first Caesar was born with a full head of hair ( Fest. p. 44 Müll.). Doederlein (Synon. iii. 17) assigns it to caesius, as applied to the colour of the skin, or perhaps of the eyes.

Which is correct? I favor Festus's explanation, but the other theories should certainly be mentioned in etymology of the name of Julius Caesar. —Charles P.  (Mirv) 18:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Level of Caesar's military reputation.

The article currently states:

Historians place the generalship of Caesar on the level of such geniuses as Alexander the Great, Hannibal, Genghis Khan, and Napoleon Bonaparte.

I would say that this is an exaggeration. I would suggest that historians tend to put the generalship of Caesar at the level below that of Alexander or Hannibal or Napoleon. Caesar is highly regarded, but I've rarely seen him referred to as one of the all time greats. john k 18:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

He is one of the all-time greats because whilst he did not conquer as much territory as others that was due to motivation, not lack of ability. Historians do not just look at how much they've conquered, but their general tactics and so forth.

Indeed, just look at the adversaries Caesar faced. As propraetor he succesfully wared in Hispania, as proconsul he defeated the Helvetians and then Ariovistus' Suebi, he conquered the Gauls and Belgians in a vicious ten year campaign, he invaded Britain twice, drove out the republicans from Rome with only a single legion after crossing the Rubicon, defeated four Republican armies (at Ilerda, Pharsalus, Thapsus and Munda) with those Romans probably being the hardest military opponent anyone could face in that timeframe, he defeated the Egyptians in 48 BC, defeated Pharnaces at Zela... In all his battles he was vastly outnumbered by his adversaries... He personally only faced a single defeat (Dyrrachium) which was a tactical defeat which he rectified at Pharsalus.

Caesar was a master both in regular battle as in siege operations (Avaricum, Alesia,...). His war record merits the distinction of being one of the best generals in world history. Personally, I find Alexander's war record far less impressive than Caesar's --fdewaele, 20 October 2006, 11:20.

Remember, generalship does not merely mean the ability to fight well. It means the ability to also motivate, to make good decisions, to keep morale high, the ability to have loyal and worthy troops whom, under your leadership, have become great themselves. Look at all the criteria, and decide. Rev. James Triggs 20:33, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Rev. James Triggs 20:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)== After JC death events in introduction ==

I think there is too much space dedicated to events happened after JC death in the introduction. Is this form something it was agreed upon, or can I change it?--Panairjdde 11:06, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know. But, it should, at the very least be somewhere (naturally in a legacy section). But, since he is long-dead when we introduce him, it should be from the present-day perspective. Keep it, I think, but if it is too long, remove parts of it.

[edit] Caesar's source of money

Unfortunately, all of the pomp, circumstance, and public taxpayers' dollars being spent incenced certain members of the Roman Senate. One of these was Caesar's closest friend, Marcus Junius Brutus.

- I seem to remember that the money from Caesar's public works came from the sale of booty, etc. from his triumphs. Not money that was extracted from the Roman public. It seems to me that this arguement is a bit of an anachronism and ignores the real source of aristocratic agitation: Caesar's monopolization of power and other insults to the senate. Does anyone else think this comment should be removed? Amphipolis 02:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Me.--Panairjdde 11:30, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm learning Caesar right now and I'm pretty sure he borrowed money from lots of people which is why he needed to become Pontifex Maximus. Might be wrong. 202.169.221.108 06:42, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

Extensive article 51k in length but only 3 references in the entire article, This was a major reason given for delisting from FA status in November 2005 and its still hasn't been addressed. The other issue is stability 50 edits in 10 days not many of those are vandalism and reverts. The last 500 edits have taken place in less than 2 months, there is a higher percentage of vandalism/reverts in these still not significant enough to cause this many edits. The edit count will reduce with cites as uncited sections draw more good faith but inappropriate edits. Besides this it is interesting read and the prose is Good it deserves to achieve GA and FA but these issues need to be addressed first. Gnangarra 15:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

After a re-read and discussion with nominator I'm happy to reverse my decision. Isuggest that this article gets semi-protection to reduce vandalism and address the stability problem. Gnangarra 04:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Passed GA

Congratulations to the editors of this article, please consider using <ref></ref>. when making future edits. Gnangarra 04:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audio Version?

In relation to the request at the head of this page for an audio version to be created, I'd like to ask opinions on how the Roman names and Latin words should be presented. Obviously there's a great deal of controversy about Latin pronunciations - for example, should 'Caesar' be 'Seezer' as it is generally pronounced, or 'kai-sar' as remnant words (such as Kaiser) seem to indicate? Should 'Julius' be 'Julius' or 'Yulius'? I'm not asking for a full rundown of every term in the article - but I'd appreciate any suggestions as to how formal or precise an audio article is expected to be with regard to pronouncing a language that no-one's heard spoken by a contemporary native speaker. Thanks - Adaru 10:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More on Caesar's career

I have a bit more information on Caesar's early career... in 68 B.C he was quaestor, and he went to western spain to act under the praetor there as a travelling judge, and in 65 B.C. he was aedile when he put on so much public games with his own money that (as I mentioned in some section above) he got himself into a MASSIVE debt that only the praetor- and consul-ship could get rid of. 202.169.221.108 06:47, 19 September 2006 (UTC)r

[edit] Further reading

Of course, there are a lot of books written about Julius Caesar, but why not mention at least the important ones? Now, I'm not saying that Meier's book is the most important ... it's just for starts.—Barbatus 03:46, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This is getting ridiculous

I'm going to put this article up for semi-protect; there are just too many vandalisms. If anyone objects, feel free to remove the page from requests for protection (but, just as a favor, please let me as well). Thanks -Patstuart 23:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Please do. I think, that padlock could be placed on every article about a 'historical celebrity.' In the last few weeks, I've mostly been reverting instead of editing. Too many idiots.—Barbatus 00:23, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime with Cleopatra?

I don't understand the following:

Caesar and Cleopatra never married. In fact they could not marry. As Roman law stood, the institution of marriage was only recognized between two Roman citizens and as Cleopatra was Queen of Egypt, she was not a Roman citizen. In Roman eyes this did not even constitute adultery. Adultery could only occur between two Roman citizens. Caesar is believed to have committed this crime numerous times during his last marriage which lasted 14 years but produced no children.

What crime? Adultery? But we have just learned that he did not commit adultery! Very confusing ...

You misunderstand. Adultery, by Roman Law, it is not considered adultery unless it is between two Roman citizens. He is believed to have committed adultery with Cleopatra, but this would not be considered adultery. He did not commit adultery- in Roman eyes. But this is now; we see it as a crime nonetheless. Does this explanation help? Rev. James Triggs 20:41, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Where do you live that adultery is a crime? Nonetheless, that should be irrelevant: if someone commits an act that his society with a clear concept of crime does not call a crime, he does not commit a crime. A crime is a knowing breach of existing law. Right? Renke 13:29, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Archives

This talk page was extremely long, so I took it upon myself to create some topical archives. This is my first attempt at any sort of archiving, so please let me know if I've done anything wrong! I hope the subsections are useful and will make this page more productive. —anskas 20:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural depictions of Julius Caesar

I've started an approach that may apply to Wikipedia's Core Biography articles: creating a branching list page based on in popular culture information. I started that last year while I raised Joan of Arc to featured article when I created Cultural depictions of Joan of Arc, which has become a featured list. Recently I also created Cultural depictions of Alexander the Great out of material that had been deleted from the biography article. Since cultural references sometimes get deleted without discussion, I'd like to suggest this approach as a model for the editors here. Regards, Durova 17:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I created the Julius Caesar in popular culture page. I noticed this approach is gets used more and more. Pavel Vozenilek 16:53, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I've moved it to Durova's suggested title, to include ancient, medieval and early modern works that can't really be considered "popular culture". --Nicknack009 23:17, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caesar on Sci-Fi

• In an epsiode of Star Trek Deep Space Nine, Garek remarks in-either real of feinded suprise regarding Julius Caesar-that a man who could conquer an empire would leave himself open to assassination. {implying prehaps that a Cardassian Caesar would conquer a empire and not leave himself open to assasssination?}. Even in Science-Fictionthe name of "Caesar" still rebounds.

[edit] Caesar and Sulla

If cut down some of the details about Sulla added by Caesar10 - not because it's inaccurate (it's not) but because this is a very long article (and going to get longer - there's nothing about Caesar's tangential involvement in Catiline's conspiracy, or the Bona Dea scandal, yet), so detail not directly relevant to Caesar himself should be kept to a minimum. The Marius/Sulla civil war is very relevant to understanding Caesar's later actions and the Senatorial establishment's fear of him, but the procedure by which Sulla was appointed dictator or who his consular colleague was, for example, aren't. Details like that belong in Sulla's own article. Let's keep this manageable. --Nicknack009 17:56, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] request for semi-protection

I have requested Semi-Protection because of frequent vandalism by anonymous users. ArthurWeasley 00:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

I've semi-protected. Durova 03:00, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] eulogy

was the eulogy dramatic or not? Caesar's page: "but he did give a dramatic eulogy " Brutus' page: "a brief, factal, and undramatic eulogy"

Roman society viewed the passive role during sex, regardless of gender, to be a sign of submission or inferiority. Indeed, Suetonius says that in Caesar's Gallic triumph, his soldiers sang that, "Caesar may have conquered the Gauls, but Nicomedes conquered Caesar".[27] According to Cicero, Bibulus, Gaius Memmius (whose account may be from firsthand knowledge), and others (mainly Caesar's enemies), he had an affair with Nicomedes IV of Bithynia early in his career. The tales were repeated by some Roman politicians as a way to humiliate and degrade him. It is possible that the rumors were spread only as a form of character assassination. Caesar himself, according to Cassius Dio, denied the accusations under oath.[28]

Mark Antony charged that Octavian had earned his adoption by Caesar through sexual favors. Suetonius described Antony's accusation of an affair with Octavian as political slander. The boy Octavian was to become the first Roman emperor following Caesar's death