Talk:Kansas City, Missouri

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Contents 1 Stop deleting the picture! 2 Fountains 3 History 4 WikiProject Pitch 5 KC Photos 6 Metropolitan size 7 Gay/Lesbian Life 8 Food/Culture 9 Swope Park 10 Eminem's Association with KC 11 Transportation 12 Counties... 13 KC Restaurant link 14 Other 15 Spam on this page 16 compromise 17 Strange "Asylum" at around 18th and Forest 18 "The Delinquents" and Kansas City Film 19 Climate source? 20 Sports - Future Teams - source? 21 Kansas City vs. Kansas City Metropolitan Area 22 neighborhoods discussion 23 Vacant lot at 1810 E 49th St 24 A Mexican Customs Port? 25 KC Metro vs STL Metro 26 Downtown map misleading 27 Here's an idea - WikiProject KC 28 Prospero's 29 Charlie O Mule Gift of Stuart Symington? 30 See Also Section 31 Kansas City Population 32 Nearby locations 33 Killa City 34 "World city" claim 35 Crime 36 further editing future 37 Light Rail

[edit] Stop deleting the picture!

I keep posting the KCMO skyline picture, which I get from the SPANISH version of Wikipedia. Stop deleting the picture! It is legal and under a GNU licence. Please consult with me (enorton08) BEFORE you think about deleting the picture, or else I will report you for unreasonable deletion.

If you don't want it deleted, then you must add a copyright tag to the photo. Otherwise, the copyright cops will continue to believe that you're just pulling pictures from random places and delete them accordingly. You don't get an A on a term paper unless you include a bibliography. (If you're getting perfect scores on papers despite never turning in a term paper, then your school's a complete joke.)

Oh, and sign your talk page entires. Simply type --~~~~. --KHill-LTown 20:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fountains

Where is the source for the number of fountains?

• I just followed a series of links - starting at kcmo.org from the external links on this article, which led me to visitkc.com, and eventually to http://www.kcfountains.org/, a site maintained by the City of Fountains Foundation. It states that their database now lists over 200 Kansas City fountains. Problem is, this isn't a commonly tracked statistic, like population, or crime. I've also noticed that several sites are currently saying that KC "...has more fountains than any other city in the world, with the possible exception of Rome" - it's hard to say which city has more. Any info on how many Rome has, anyways? BTW, I'll add the kcfountains site to the list of external links for this article. Oh, and don't forget to sign comments on talk pages. --Reverend Loki 19:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) ADDED: Heh, links already there... I just overlooked it. --Reverend Loki 19:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History

Added a more detailed early history of Kansas City. 65.28.2.172 13:24, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! However, as this article is getting very large, I've moved it to a new page: History of Kansas City. Please keep on the lookout for other sections of the article we can make separate entries. --KHill-LTown 19:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Pitch

There appear to be a considerable amount of editors interested in writing and/or contributing to articles about the Kansas City area. Should we form a WikiProject aimed at adding or improving these articles? (Oh, and I hope someone's taken a photo of "the Scout" at Penn Valley Park - that'd be a great project logo and stub icon.) --KHill-LTown 00:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The recently created WikiProject Missouri will serve in this capacity for the time being. --KHill-LTown 23:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

This article is part of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri.

[edit] KC Photos

We've lost several great photos of the Kansas City area due to their copyright status not being listed. Please, Please, PLEASE list a copyright tag when uploading photos! If it's yours, say so! License it accordingly!! --KHill-LTown 01:31, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Metropolitan size

Kansas City has the 27th largest metropolitan in the nation (population 1,836,038), while St. Louis is 18th, with 2,698,687. Therefore, St. Louis is the largest metropolitan in Missouri. --KHill-LTown 23:11, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Source: List_of_United_States_metropolitan_statistical_areas_by_population

[edit] Gay/Lesbian Life

"Queens" of the Priests of Pallas festivals (1887-1924) were disguised and their identity never disclosed during the festival events. It was later revealed that the "queens" were, in fact, men. At the time, it was felt the parade and other activities would be too strenuous for a woman. This begat the beginning of one of the first underground gay communities in the US. Drawing cross-dressers from everywhere, many burlesque performers at cabaret clubs during the jazz era were actually men.

http://www.kcskyscrapers.com/newforum/index.php?topic=2788.0

[edit] Food/Culture

Nothing about our bbq? *sigh* I guess someone (me?) should add something. Because we have the best in the world... Probably deserves a mention. tp 22:42, Jan 29, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Swope Park

Was listed as the largest in the nation at 1000 acres, a little larger than Central Park's 843 acres in New York. But South Mountain Park within the city of Phoenix, Arizona, is 16,500 acres- just a bit larger: (11 miles across and 58 miles of trails). --Blainster 08:45, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Eminem's Association with KC

• Also, Eminem? Could someone explain why he's here, as his article doesn't give me any clues. He was born in St. Joseph, which is in northern Missouri, but not usually considered part of the KC area Gwimpey 04:06, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

OK, some sources on the net give his birthplace as KC, but the article says St. Joseph. Which is it?Gwimpey 04:09, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

He's from St. Joseph, over fifty miles away from metropolitan Kansas City, so I wouldn't include it.

In response to a recent addition: At the moment Kansas City and St. Joseph are not part of the same metropolitan statistical area. Eminem has about the same significance to the Kansas City area as Steve McQueen, who lived on a farm 70 miles (112.6 km) away in Slater when he was a toddler. --KHill-LTown 20:11, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Walter Cronkite was also born in St. Joseph and grew up in a different part of the country. However, he has family in KC (his cousin is current KCMO mayor Kay Barnes) and he met his wife while working at a Kansas City radio station.--KHill-LTown 4 July 2005 19:50 (UTC)

[edit] Transportation

What's the city's internal transportation system like? Does it use light rail or just buses? That part of the article, found in other city articles, is missing. -Amit

What mass transit? Kansas Citians have been reluctant to support mass transit initiatives. The last initiative that passed was a sales tax to keep the bus system afloat. The streetcars have been gone for almost 50 years, we've got more interstate miles per capita than any other metro area in the U.S., we're sprawled like crazy. Few take any light rail plan seriously, and tunneling for a subway would be beyond expensive for a metro of 1.8 million. Not to mention two of the big three car makers have plants here that show no signs of closing. Kansas Citians, to put it generally, love their cars. --KHill-LTown 23:26, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

I've heard from someone in Los Angeles that we're wrong about the Interstate-miles-per-capita thing, so does anyone have a cite? Nae'blis 21:23:59, 2005-08-31 (UTC)

Clay Chastain said that we had that "dubious" honor when he was pitching his light rail. Guess I'm the idiot who still thinks his sources had a degree of merit. I'll have to take a ruler to my Rand McNally to figure it out, but as I recall, Wikipedia discourages original research. However, they have nearly three times as many people in their metro, and the count can't include US HIghways. --KHill-LTown 00:36, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[1] says Kansas Citians drive 29 miles per person, versus 23 miles per person for Los Angeles area. However neither is highest in that measurement (Houston 'wins' that prize at 37). As far as the 'freeway miles per capita' measure, we're second as of 2003 (we were highest in 1999, apparently) - again losing to Houston TX. [2] Nae'blis 20:26:34, 2005-09-07 (UTC)

I came here looking to find out about transportation, too... and I did not find an article on it. You can talk about Freeways, Kansas City Metro "The Bus", and your new MAX (Metropolitan Area Express) rail system... not to be confused with Portland's. Another great thing to discuss is the river traffic, and more about the ports. Transportation is not just buses and rail (especially not in kansas city. I was there and all i saw was pavement :P) Alphalife 09:07, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

KC is the 2nd largest RR hub, not third.

Despite the past problems Kansas City has faced in finding support for and maintaining its mass transit system, current trends show that its use is on the rise. The Metro Area bus system transports approximately 50,000 people each day, and with the current renovation of the downtown area , as well as the addition of new Metro Area eXpress line, this is only expected to rise. River traffic, as Alphalife mentioned, is also a very good topic of discussion. I am currently doing research in an attempt to expand this section of the article. Any feedback would be appreciated. -JWFowler 19:58, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

I'm needing to double check this, but Richards Gebaur isn't an airport anymore, is it? --KHill-LTown 17:02, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Richards-Gebaur's runway has been closed for around 6 years now. Currently, a railroad cuts through the old runway, plus there are numerous new cars parked there for storage. 131.7.251.200 08:02, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The statement that the buses run 7 days a week is misleading. All buses run on weekdays. Some do run on Saturday. Even fewer run on Sunday. The route that the bus takes can change depending on the day of the week. http://kcata.org/_kcatadata/allresults.asp --JustAGal 16:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Counties...

There is an outline of Jackson County, Missouri showing (in red) the KCMO city limites in that county. But, there are 2 problems...
1. Kansas City is in 3 other counties as well.
2. The city limits of Kansas City (shown in red on the outline) are also incorrect.
Is there any way to fix that?

I left a note with the person who uploaded that, suggesting he or she add Clay and Platte. Of course, since Wikipedia is the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit, perhaps you or I can make the necessary adjustments. --KHill-LTown 05:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

The counties showing the KCMO city limits in red are CORRECT. They look great (in my opinion). But, is there any way to add Platte County, Missouri on there to make the image most accurate? I would do it myself, but I am still learning all about Wikipedia as I go along here...

I'm in the process of adding Platte County to the map to complete the image. My apologies for the delay. SoundGod3 05:01, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Finished. Let me know if I missed something. SoundGod3 06:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Map looks great. Thanks!! --KHill-LTown 08:55, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I think it looks excellent!!! --AllThingsKC 09:23, 13, December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] KC Restaurant link

In the event this comes up for arbitration, I am inclined to favor that the link to a KC area restaurant guide not be listed. It appears as though restaurants must pay to be listed on this guide. Outerwise, I'd be astonished to see that there's only four restaurants in the entire Northland (an expanse across two counties) when I actually count just many more in Zona Rosa alone. --KHill-LTown 12:22, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other

• Any reason why there's two shots of Bartle Hall in the page? This is a metropolitan of 1.8 million and all that's on here photographically are two photos of the same thing. (Hmm... another reason why I should become a shutterbug.)--KHill-LTown 01:39, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Addendum: please, if you are uploading pics of Kansas City you've taken, make sure you claim them as your own and license them appropriately or release them into the public domain! They're gorgeous shots, but unless you list appropriate licensing, administrators will delete them!--KHill-LTown 06:40, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

• Isn't soccer played at Kemper Arena, not Arrowhead Stadium? I know in the days of the Kansas City Komets, the Komets played at Kemper. --Dave Farquhar 21:02, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

See Arrowhead Stadium. It lists the "Kansas City Wizards (MLS) 1996-Present" ... JDR

If they played in Kemper then they must have been an indoor soccer team. Indoor soccer is played on a much smaller field with walls. It's basically a modified ice hockey court.--Gbleem 09:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Wizards are an outdoor team. The Kansas City Comets (formerly Attack), play at Kemper in the Major Indoor Soccer League. KHill-LTown 17:56, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Edgar Allan Poe? Kansas City? My google failed me.

Mine too. Away he goes. If someone has a good reason for putting him back, please do, but tell us why! Gwimpey 04:06, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

• FYI, I didn't add that reference to Diwa's House. I have no clue what the heck it is or who added it. --KHill-LTown 06:41, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yup, yours was the last version w/o that reference. Probably somebody named "Diwa" playing around. Gwimpey 02:04, Nov 29, 2004 (UTC)

I added some attracitons. Rennaissance festival should be in KC,MO as the organization and the year-round stuff is headquarted in the actual city (and it benefits the arts in the actual city) even though some of the events are held in ks near verizon wirelss.

added other missing KC,MO attractions

[edit] Spam on this page

Mrkrannawitter (talk • contribs) continues to add his link to a KC restaurant-promotion site which is clearly (to me at least) a commercial link which does not fit in an encyclopedia. I'm looking to avoid an endless revert war over this, because that doesn't benefit anyone - does anyone else have any thoughts about this site? (It appears that there may be some discussion already above that indicates this link should not be added) (ESkog)^(Talk) 00:54, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why the KC Blogs link is there. Anyone? --Hobbes747 15:50, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] compromise

Lets add the link to just the KC Missouri page. I see that some others feel that it isnt spam, and the way i feel is that people can use it for free to find some information on the Culinary aspect of KC. I am going to add the link once more to the KC missouri page and hope we can agree that it should be there.

Let me make one more point. This link is not here in order to have restaurants/restaurant owners find it and then pay money to be on the guide. I doubt any restaurant owners will come through the Wiki and see a restaurant guide link and feel the need to pay to be included. I do see many restaurant patrons coming through and finding the guide quite useful if they are planning a business trip, a vacation, or a permanent move to KC. I do not see anyway that the actual site will make money from this link, and I personally have used this guide on several occasions while traveling to and through KC.

I vote we all leave the link alone and see who else comes along to argue its place.

• I'm game for that, pending other people weighing in. (ESkog)^(Talk) 07:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
• OK. It's not exactly Fromer's or Zagat, but at least since restaurants don't have to pay to be listed, it's buildable. Hopefully more restaurants will submit their restaurants onto that list, making it more likely to stay linked from Wikipedia. --KHill-LTown 17:20, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Strange "Asylum" at around 18th and Forest

Does anyone have any information at all about this strange, mysterious stone building, obviously deserted complete with broken windows and unhinged doors, with letters on the top, very faded, saying "ASYLUM"? It is located near the corner of 18th Street and Forest Avenue. Any info at all would be very much appreciated.

Check the Kansas City Public Library. Find something there and share the wealth!! --KHill-LTown 05:00, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Got a specific address? I might be able to check city property records... even if you can tell me what corner it's on, or how far down, that would help. -- nae'blis _(talk) 16:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The anonymous user did say 18th Street and Forest Avenue. --KHill-LTown 17:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that. There are four corners and more than a half-dozen buildings in that area, and the map requires a new page load for each one. Having a specific parcel address would improve my ability to search considerably. -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:20, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

REPLY: I'm not sure if there's an exact address. It looks like it probably doesn't even have an address or any records anymore. It's at probably 1803 Forest Ave., I'm guessing, I say this because it's one building down from what would be 1801 Forest, which is right up at that corner. -- 10:02, 30 January 2006

REPLY: 1826 Forest Ave. was the home of the Wheatley Hospital in the 1930's

• I also want to add - for many years, a dark attraction called "Dr Deadly's Haunted Hospital" operated out of that area. I remember going there once around 1993-1994 time period, and it had been running for years before that. A quick search pulled up an old address listing as "1825 Forest Ave" ([website]), but I'm not sure how accurate that is. I also remember they advertised that they were operating in a "real former insane asylum". So, though it may or may not have been an insane asylum (gotta allow for artistic license, after all), that's probably the building. The decor may be more as a result of it's years as a commercial haunted house rather than any stint as an actual asylum, though. --Reverend Loki 00:47, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Delinquents" and Kansas City Film

Although it is not directly related to the Kansas City page, there was a feature film titled "The Delinquents" made by Robert Altman in Kansas City in the mid-'50s. It has been suggested we "clean up" the article on that film. Any suggestions? Also, our article "Film in Kansas City" has been tagged for clean-up. Once again, any suggestions for these two articles?

Well again, you could clean them up. This is, after all, the encyclopedia anybody can edit. So dig in and make both those articles great!! --KHill-LTown 16:44, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Climate source?

Where is the climate source? USPatent 17:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports - Future Teams - source?

In this section it is mentioned that KC is hoping for an NBA or NHL team to fill the Sprint Arena; this much is common enough knowledge. It also mentions that the two most likely teams to move to KC are the Sacremento Kings and the Orlando Magic. Anyone have a source on this fact? --Reverend Loki 22:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kansas City vs. Kansas City Metropolitan Area

What criteria do we use to decide what goes in the Kansas City, Mo article and what goes in the Kansas City Metropolitan Area article? --Gbleem 17:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

It should be relatively simple: If it involves a KCMO address (north or south of the river), it goes in this article. If it's a suburb or KCK, it goes elsewhere. --KHill-LTown 21:17, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Close, but I would say it does get a bit more complicated than that. For instance, there are a lot of "things" (substitute: people, places, events, ideas, etc) that extend beyond any one city in the metro area. An couple of examples: I-435, and KC barbecue. I-435 is pretty obvious - it goes through several cities - this should warrant a mention in the individual articles of all of these cities, as well as the KC Metro Area article. Of course, barbecue is a part of te KC tradition, but some of the great restaurants are in the suburbs. Here's a possible rule of thumb - if it is something that is important to those living outside of KCMO as part of ther identity as a member of the KC Metro area, then it goes in the metro article. This rule would probably mean that the Chiefs, Royals, Wizards, and other KCMO based teams get a mention too. Which stands to reason... they are supported in part by Jackson county, which extends beyond just KCMO. It would also include the T-Bones, based out of KCKS. Now, KCMO and KC Metro need not each maintain exclusive info... an item in the KC Metro article can be in the KCMO article too. We should just make sure that one article isn't merely a mirror or a subset of the other article. And if you are ever in doubt about a specific entry, just ask on the talk pages; al sorts of people will be more than happy to voice their opinion on it. --Reverend Loki 21:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

One possible solution is to put everything in the metro article and then only put a few items about government in the individual cities. This way you aren't repeating the same thing in every little town. --Gbleem 18:27, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't really fit in with the overall format of other city articles, though, based upon a brief look around. People expect that info to be in the KCMO article. There would have to be a lot of cross linking to make sure people got to the info they wanted. I think we're going to have to accept that there is going to be a certain amount of overlap and repetition. And how about a theoretical point where almost anything that would fit into a KCMO or KC Metro article is also covered under it's own main article, such as KC History, or Sports in KC? --Reverend Loki 19:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. We should turn our focus to expanding about these aspects of KC in separate article: History, Economy, Transportation, Barbecue, etc. --KHill-LTown 19:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] neighborhoods discussion

Side article needs more eyeballs: please weigh in at Talk:List_of_Registered_Neighborhoods_in_Kansas_City,_Missouri, thanks. :)

[edit] Vacant lot at 1810 E 49th St

I was looking up a local KC celebrity of the past (Shelby Storck) in city directories, and found that between 1920 and 1940, he lived in a house (with his mother, grandfather, and uncle) at 1810 E 49th St. I looked for the address (which is in a rather depressing slum area just down the block from Paseo High School) in my car and found that it is now a vacant lot, and that half of the space the old house occupied is now occupied by one half of a more modern-looking (perhaps 1960's-1970's?) duplex. A search for any info on this address on the internet in the Kansas City Public Library "Local History" file yielded no results, but I was wondering if there was any way to access city property records to find when and why the home was demolished. Or perhaps pictures of the house when it was still standing. Or anything (lol.). Thanks. --- Mike14

The only thing I can come up with is the KivaNet listing for that parcel, which doesn't tell you much. County records might be able to tell you more... -- nae'blis 02:17, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Mexican Customs Port?

I recently got a blog entry in an e-mail that claims the government is considering a plan to declare Kansas City, MO a "port" under Mexican sovereignty. Is this actually being considered, or is it just paranoid rambling? JDspeeder1 18:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Presumably that would be at Kansas City International Airport which has direct flights to Mexico. The "I" designation at KCI came from the Mexico flights. KCI had hoped for more international flights since it was one of the first two big hubs for TWA but they never materialized.Americasroof 18:51, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Making a port there under Mexican sovereignty is news... I can't help but question the veracity of that statement. I'm sure it's not as simple as that statement makes it sound. There has been talk of making an inland port at KC for a while now. There was some talk about turning the old airport at the intersection of 71 and 150 Hways (sorry, name escapes me right now) into a major rail- and road-way hub, and possibly running customs inspections out of there... though I think that plan didn't come to full fruition, I don't know what happened with it. Another recent articlue mentioning the US Customs in KC: [3] (search the article for Kansas City - second hit, it's under the subheading "integration and independence"). I found the KC SmartPort site interesting as well - particularly the statement "As one of only five U.S. cities in which three interstates intersect, soon to be four interstates". I wasn't aware of a fourth coming to town. I assume the 3 are 70, 35 and 29, of course (all the others are offshoots of those). A quickle Google turned up not much. Anyone else heard of this? --Reverend Loki 18:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Richards-Gebaur is now a multimodal hub, and 71 Highway is suppose to become I-49 when Arkansas gets around to building a freeway from Fort Smith south to Shreveport. MoDOT's said they will sign all of US-71 south of the Triangle I-49 when it's all interstate-grade.
The port's been in discussion for awhile, but I think it'll be limited to a few warehouses in the West Bottoms. Mexico's taken a great interest in KC, seeing as Kansas City Southern's taken over their national freight line. --KHill-LTown 19:18, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Everything I've seen has said it would not have Mexican sovereignity (at least, that's the official line); however it does seem to offer outbound Mexican customs service, from KC to Lazaro Cardenas. The "Mexican sovereignty" thing seems to be something in an email that came out due to the Sunshine Law, but "not bloody likely" comes to mind, especially after the Dubai port debacle. -- nae'blis 00:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds notable. Anybody up for SmartPort wiki? Americasroof 03:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] KC Metro vs STL Metro

There's been something like 5-10 edits today changing the quantity comparison between population of the St Louis Metro vs the Kansas City Metro areas. It looks like some want to use 2000 Census figures, while others want to use more recent estimates, and I'm not sure but I think some are inexplicably trying to use a combination of the two. I suggest you discuss it here and get it out of your systems,if it's so important to you. Really, though, I don't think that little factoid is all that important, and not that useful - either you're using figures 6 years out of date, or figures that are rough estimates at best.
Anyways, have at it. --Reverend Loki 21:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm doing my own census. So far I have counted me, my neighbory Chuck, Melinda in the next house and Six people in the Hicks house on the corner. I'll get back to you when I'm done. --Gbleem 00:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Allright, let's see... I assume these people are all in the KC Metro area. I notice you don't have anything for STL yet, so I'll just mark that as 0. Now, it looks like, according to initial numbers, the KC Metro is actually larger than the STL metro by... well, I guess an infinite amount (when using an extended non-negative real number system, at least). Of course, this figure will be updated in the future as more results come in, but as an intermediary estimate based upon the data on hand from the Gbleem Survey... --Reverend Loki 00:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC) (who assesses himself a 2 drink penalty for using 3 ellipses in one paragraph).

Wait a minute. It's against Wikipedia's policy to post original research in articles! :D
OK, where was I? Oh, right. Saying how much larger the St. Louis metro is than KC's is superfluous. Agree with omitting it entirely. --KHill-LTown 18:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Downtown map misleading

I do not think this map serves any purpose and should be removed from the article. There are plenty of graphics that could replace it. The map tries to bracket downtown between I-70 and I-670 while the Downtown Kansas City article notes downtown is between the Missouri River and 31st Street. Americasroof 03:28, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Is there even a definitive "downtown" boundary that has been set out by an authoritative body? By the text definition given, I work in the downtown area - however, towards the edge of it, and none of us consider it to be within downtown - we just call it the Union Hill area. However, I normally consider the downtown area to be a bit more expansive than just whats within the downtown loop. Maybe recaption the picture? What other pictures where you thinking about replacing it with? The downtown loop is an important part of the geography that shapes the city... --Reverend Loki 03:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As I have stated elsewhere I dislike the use of "official" neighborhood boundaries officially set by the city. I have not come across any other article in other cities where they rely on an official definition for the city to define neighborhoods. I think most people probably think of downtown basically being from Union Station north to the river. My annoyance with the map is that it wipes out an area that most people consider downtown in the Crossroads District which includes the KC Star, the TWA Corporate Headquarters, 1908 Main. Americasroof 04:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Downtown is a highly nebulous term: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/6694172.htm (cached copy) for starters discusses extending it as far south as the Plaza. I agree that the Loop is iconic, but it all depends on our terminology. The "Greater Downtown area" seems to be the one that extends to 31st Street, as established by ordinance. -- nae'blis 22:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.. just read that ordinance. Apparently, there is a gap in the downtown boundary - the ordinance states that the southern edge continues along East Linwood to Broadway. East Linwood never reaches Broadway - at Main, it becomes West Linwood. An incomplete perimeter does not mark a body.. therefore, the entire world is, by ordinance, declared to be Downtown Kansas City. Who wants to word this update? --Reverend Loki 22:32, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed the caption to address my peeve on the map which unfortunately tried to label the core as the downtown business district. Again, I don't like the city's official designations as 31st Street is way too south. Americasroof 14:04, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, 31st Street is the southern boundary of Penn Valley Park. Probably not worth rationalizing in the article, but I thought I'd throw this into the discussion as what the city's thinking. --KHill-LTown 22:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

To me and most people I know Downtown is the nasty area where you can't find parking which means within the loop. Outside of the loop parking is not so bad. The city wants to make downtown as big as possible, in my opinion, to first ease grant writing and connect downtown to the Plaza. You can't develop any further North. Downtown was a nasty word in many cities for a time and still is in some cities. I think this is why you we have had such an emphasis on calling places by names like Hospital Hill, Union Hill, Crown Center, The Crossroads and such. Call my neighborhood anything but downtown. --Gbleem 19:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Officially, according to City Hall and the Downtown Council, Downtown is regarded as from River to 31st St. and I-35 to Bruce R. Watkins. Mayor Kay Barnes and others regard Greater Downtown as a reference to Downtown, Midtown, Westport and the Plaza. I personally choose to go with the official definitions. The Loop is simply the Downtown Loop, a part of Downtown as a whole. As is Crown Center, the River Market and the Crossroads. --KCMODevin 03:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here's an idea - WikiProject KC

So, I was marvelling at how far along all of these articles about the Kansas City area are coming along, when it also occurred to me that it isn't all that easy keeping track of new articles cropping up that we may be interested in and/or are able to contribute to. Perhaps the time has come to start a WikiProject Kansas City page to help coordinate amongst contributors? Here's the WikiProject page if you want to familiarize yourself with the concept. It would give a place to discuss the organization of all the KC related articles, as well as a way to organize and easily find related articles as they are created. Thing is, is there enough interest in the idea to warrant it? --Reverend Loki 19:39, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I think you need five additional contributors to voice support

Well, four: I'm in! --KHill-LTown 20:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Count me in. Americasroof 07:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

In. There's enough in this sprawling metropolis for a project, without a doubt. -- nae'blis 09:11, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm up for it. --Hobbes747 23:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

So far, that's 5 of us total. I didn't see a hard and fast rule for a number of contributers needed, though... I've considered just operating under the auspices of WikiProject Missouri and WikiProject Kansas (haven't even checked to see if that one exists, actually), but not only is that dealing with two seperate projects, but also may not adequately address cross-state issues, or may cause confusion with tieing together mutliple articles that are domains of two seperate states. --Reverend Loki 20:46, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prospero's

I love prospero's but if we take out the Roasterie then should we take out Prospero's also? --Gbleem 23:29, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It's gotta go unless somebody can come up with a rationale to save it. Americasroof 07:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with it's omission. I like the store myself, but I have trouble arguing for it's inclusion under attractions. Rainy Day Books, maybe, particularly in light of the number of authors they bring to town and the positive influence they have on the literary scene (the other day, in KCUR (Walt Bodine, I think) I recall hearing some author comment to that effect). Now, I'm not arguing for the inclusion of RDB, just providing a like counterpoint. --Reverend Loki 20:53, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charlie O Mule Gift of Stuart Symington?

In the interest of more eyeballs and adding a little color to the Politics section. If memory serves me correctly, the Athletics mule Charlie-O was originally a gift from Stuart Symington who wanted a Democratic mule rather than Republican elephant representing the team/city. However I can't find references. Any help in finding that reference would be much appreciated. Thanks! Americasroof 07:53, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] See Also Section

Do we really need this section? The Kansas City, KS link is already covered in metro template (second template after external links). Although I like the People from KC category link I cannot see the logic for having a category for a single link. Can we put this in another section or tag it at the bottom with the other categories (only until we find a better location)? Thanks --Abernaki 13:22, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

People from Kansas City is also linked under Kansas Citians in the History section, so no reason to keep it. OT/Also, I'm totally stealing your profile layout. That's awesome! --Hobbes747 17:11, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kansas City Population

I know since this could be considered personal research, that it doesn't belong in the article, but I thought it was interesting. Everyone knows the US Census is frequently wrong on their estimates. But I just recently realized how wrong they have been about Kansas City. Most of us can drive through Kansas City and see how drastically different much of it is from 2000.

The Kansas City Home Builders Association keeps monthly records of Residential Building Permits in major cities in several major metropolitan counties. For the past few years, they've shown that KCMO has been breaking it's own records left and right. As of September 2006, there has been 14,008 residential building permits in KCMO since the year 2000.

According to the US Census Bureau, in 2000, Kansas City, MO had 202,334 residential units, 183,981 of which were occupied. This leaves 9% (.09) of them unoccupied. It also showed an average occupancy of 2.39 ppl per occupied unit. If you took that original base number and added on the 14,008 permits, that would give you 216,342 residential units. Assuming that 9% of that total remains unoccupied, that gives us 19,470 unoccupied units. If we subtract that from the total amount of units, we come out with 196,872 occupied units. Assuming that 2.39 ppl occupy each unit, that would give Kansas City a total approx. population of 470,524 people in September of 2006. This is a simple estimation, but even if we assumed 11.% of the units weren't occupied, it would still give KC a total population of 460,182 people. In either situation, it shows how off the US Census Estimate possibly is. Comments? --KCMODevin 03:05, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nearby locations

Does anyone know anything about the Village of Loch Lloyd, Missouri, which looks like it's in Cass County, Missouri? I see some businesses with that address, with ZIP code 64012. I couldn't find an article explaining what that entity is. I was also confused about Oak Park, Kansas (see the talk page there). -- Beland 22:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a development/town/golf course located in Cass County, try here. Oak Park is a mall in Overland Park, but it is not a town.P.Shack 20:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Killa City

After the last round of edits, I googled it and the term is apparently true. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=kansas+city+%22killa+city%22&btnG=Search Sad, but true. --Hobbes747 03:39, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd wait until OutKast, Diddy, or Big & Rich calls us that. UrbanDictionary.com isn't exactly canon in the eyes of civic leaders or rural residents. --KHill-LTown 03:57, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Amazing how that works. In the last few days I've been compiling a section (article(?) on Crime in Kansas City which I hope to post in the next few days. The city ranks as the 8th most dangerous city with populations more than 400,000 in the country on a per capita basis on its murder rate. And it's not just the rust belt inner city problems. There's a whole pattern of violence virtually from the city's founding in 1853 with the lawless Bleeding Kansas raids, the burning of all occupied Jackson County south of Brush Creek and east of the Blue because of lawlessness during the Civil War, the celebration by the city newspapers of Jesse James, the whole Tom Pendergast era, a big Bonnie & Clyde shootout by what is now KCI, and lots of mafia stuff. Unfortunately the slang fits perfectly. It probably needs attribution but it still fits. I'm glad to see somebody with street cred editing here. Americasroof 04:06, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it should be added whatsoever, it's obviously disrepectful and derogatory. It has no place on Wikipedia, or any article on Kansas City. While we do have high crime, we must remember there are reasons for the crime, and there are areas of Kansas City that don't have high crime. Look at Downtown for example, well over 15,000 people living in, and over 100,000 working in it's 2.9 square miles, and very little crime. Plus the term could also have a racist/prejudice use, referring to inner-city residents as "killers". Also, UrbanDictionary is like wikipedia, and users can add virtually anything to it, it isn't very reliable. --KCMODevin 11:34, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do we even need to put something negative about Kansas City on here? It makes us look like a dangerous place or could give people the wrong idea about Kansas City. --KCMODevin 02:17, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

While I agree that adding "Killa City" as one of KC's nickname is not sound, I disagree with this position. AFAIR, Wikipedia is not a mechanism for public relations. Perhaps a section on fluctuating crime rates that includes the nickname is more prudent. --KHill-LTown 03:24, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

The murder rate has gotten pretty bad. My mom even got a license to carry. Americasroof is working on a crime section. --Hobbes747 04:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

So long as the name "Killa City" is limited to the crime section, I'm game for that. (Personally, I blame Channel 5's sleazy reporting tactics. What says ratings like flashy graphics, blood, gore, sex stings, and a feature on the latest Survivor castaway before Katie Horner's forecast?) --KHill-LTown 04:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know about you, but I'm here to represent Kansas City and promote it. I'm not here to deter people from living here by lying and saying that we are a dangerous city to live in. While our crime rate has been high, that does not mean that we are dangerous, it merely means that we have more people committing crimes that are usually only committed in the family, or among friends. The only reason this is happening is because we are so sprawled out (which is a big mistake in the first place). Our police department cannot police a city spread out over 313.5 square miles. It doesn't mean we are dangerous, it just depends on where you live. If you live near places like Prospect or some suburbs, you are in a more crime-ridden area, but you cannot label all of Kansas City as dangerous. Downtown has had a low crime rate, yet has a high density of people. (well over 15,100 people in 2.9 square miles... Plus over 100,000 employees during work hours) The claim that this is a nickname that have shouldn't be added to wikipedia whatsoever because it reflect negatively on our image and promotes false assumptions. --KCMODevin 14:27, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It's also libious. Which is against Wikipedia's rules.P.Shack 14:30, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

How is it libious if leaving this in the article could make people think we are a dangerous city when we aren't? It'd be promoting a false fact. This name is disrespectful and does not belong in this article. --KCMODevin 18:40, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Libious isn't even a word. Do you mean libelous? The name Killa City isn't derogatory to some, as another said it's practically "Street Cred". Why are you guys trying to 'sell' Kansas City? You should just try to accurately represent it.

You should also sign your comments, 208.10.112.107

Plus, you might want to note that KC is 16th most dangerous, but not the most dangerous in the state. Any "Street Cred" names you can think of for St. Louis a la "Killa City"? --KHill-LTown 23:59, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Ya! Absolutely right KHill-LTown, St. Louis is ranked #1 highest crime city in the US, while KC is only 16. And if your gonna call it Killa City, you out to call it St. Shootus :PCloversMallRat 03:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "World city" claim

I have removed the following text from the lead paragraph:

"The Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network recently designated Kansas City as having potential of attaining world city status.^[1]"

I searched the cited report, and could not find anything to support the designation claim. --Ckatz^chat_spy 10:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Really? hmmm... I know wer were added to the list of potential cities. Remember, it says potential world cities, not a world city. --KCMODevin 14:19, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you can find a specific citation, my apologies. However, I can't see support for the claim in that particular report. Any city can be a "potential" world city. Furthermore, a check on Google found that the references to "Kansas City" and "world city" came from Wikipedia. --Ckatz^chat_spy 22:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

If I had time, I'd blow your claim out of the water. Promoting KC is far more important than anything else... Oh and by the way, are you just going to be stupid and erase the Global Cities link too? How about delete every KC article while your at it? I'm here to present facts and overall, promote and represent Kansas City. I hope you have enough respect to let us represent it properly. Next time, do your research before you eliminate a fact from an article. --KCMODevin 01:11, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

And I suggest you read the actual report pdf... It does list KC along with other world cities and potential world cities, comparing them to each other. --KCMODevin 01:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Evidence: http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/citylist.html http://www.lboro.ac.uk/gawc/rb/rb5.html --KCMODevin 01:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, don't turn this into a personal dispute. I have done nothing to warrant your use of language such as "stupid", "I hope you have enough respect", and "How about delete every KC article while your at it?" This is an encyclopedia, not a travel guide or an extension of the Kansas City Chamber of Commerce. Arguments like "Promoting KC is far more important than anything else" do not hold water - the aim is to provide a balanced, fair view of the subject, using verifiable information. Your claim, that "The Globalization and World Cities Study Group and Network recently designated Kansas City as having potential of attaining world city status," is not supported by the reference you have cited. If you wish to use those references, you can write that "Kansas City displays minimal evidence of world city formation" (your first link) or that "Kansas City is a minor global legal service centre." (your second link). However, from your reply above, I doubt that is the message you wish to disseminate about your city. --Ckatz^chat_spy 04:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I believe this is my paraphrase in question. Given the links provided, I am going to agree with Ckatz on this and suggest including the first entry.

Devin, I suggest calming down. We both agree that Kansas City is freakin' awesome, but (sadly ;) ) we're not the only freakin' awesome city out there, and as such we must be careful not to make the article look to PRish. (Besides, I hate PR fluff.) --KHill-LTown 04:44, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not here to make it look PR-ish, i'm here to make us look like a great place, I personally won't include negative things, I'd only mention the good things, or if I include something negative, I'll put a positive spin on it. I get very offended because I feel I've worked hard to represent Kansas City, and I don't like it when someone who doesn't know much about KC comes in and edits something. Those sources support the idea that Kansas City potentially could become a world city. Heck, while we are probably decades from it, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't include it... It's like saying they shouldn't call Burj Dubai the future world's tallest building (in wikipedia) because it's 2-3 years out from being completed. Like I said, i'm not here to promote anything that could reflect negativity on Kansas City. I try to make it seem like a NPOV because that is what wikipedia is, and I support it. But I don't believe promoting a NPOV means presenting the negative side as well as the positive side. Sure, I edit other non-KC articles for NPOV and revert vandalism, or present more facts. But I don't do that for KC because I care a lot more about it. It isn't that I don't think anything is wrong with KC, I know there is. I just choose to ignore it and only consider the positive things, otherwise I wouldn't love it as much as I do. Like I said, I am only offended because I feel that people are trying to not make KC look good... But I'll try to find other ways to make us look good within the Wikipedia rules. --KCMODevin 11:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be frank, the conduct you have described is unavoidably on the wrong side of WP:NPOV. I would personally recommend that you back out of editing articles which you will be tempted to present from only one point of view. (ESkog)^(Talk) 11:58, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

No-can do... If I stayed away from articles I care greatly about, I wouldn't be on wikipedia. I'm here to represent Kansas City, not violate it with negative/pessimistic comments... (IE the Killa City statement) Like I said, I'll try to edit the articles with an NPOV, but I will still promote it and show ppl it's not some low-density, sprawled out, polluted, crime ridden, cowtown. --KCMODevin 19:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand what NPOV stands for; we're not saying we're trting to cast KC in a Negative light, just a neutral, unbiased one. We can't write either biased, glowing praise or biased, negative condemnation; we can cite what other reliable sources say, without giving it "undue weight" by blowing it out of proportion, but this isn't the place for "representing". We're collating or reporting, not trying to offer a one-sided view. -- nae'blis 22:39, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

In my view, NPOV doesn't mean that you say... "Look how dangerous our city may or may not be..." then allow the ppl to draw their own conclusions based on the very minimal information provided on Wikipedia. I created the articles about Downtown and Architecture to promote those two aspects of Kansas City, and provide information on them that otherwise would take some research to obtain. Same with the rest of the KC articles, I edit them to promote and represent Kansas City, and show ppl what Kansas City is really like. If something says that the crime rate has been high, it should also say those crimes are only in specific crime-ridden areas of the city, and most aren't just random acts of evil, and that they aren't all concentrated in singular areas. I'm not here to say "Hey! My city is better than yours!"... I'm here to present facts from reliable sources and just show ppl how great our city is. --KCMODevin 19:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for sounding like a jerk, i've been sick and my temper has been pretty short. --KCMODevin 22:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Crime

I know someone on here is going to be adding a new section on crime in Kansas City, but I was thinking about something. Why is Kansas City considered dangerous by some when it really isn't that dangerous? I decided to look at a new type of crime statistic... Crimes per square mile... When listed against St. Louis, Independence, KCK, Overland Park, Lee's Summit, Olathe, etc... KC has only about 171.36 crimes per square mile.

Here is a list of the cities and their crimes per square mile: St. Louis - 1050.61 Kansas City - 171.24 Independence - 136.81 KCK - 128.09 Overland Park - 90.54 Olathe - 78.62 Lee's Summit - 44.07

When you take into perspective that KC has over 300 square miles of area, then you realize that it's crime is not necessarily as high as some people may believe...

If Kansas City was more compact, with more people in a denser area, it's crime would be a lot lower. The reason crime is as high as it is (though i'm not saying it's a high crime rate), is because of how spread out we are. Sprawl leads to an increase in crime. Not the other way around. --KCMODevin 11:53, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, this paper would seem to contradict what you're trying to say here: I don't think Kansas City's sprawl has much to do with our crime rate, as most criminal activity occurs in the urban core[4], which is more positively correlated to socioeconomic status than density. -- nae'blis 16:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

However, soon, in the next decades, you will see a rise in crime in the suburbs... Also my friend, sprawl is bad and does contribute to crime. If we weren't so spread out, we could have better funded police in a smaller area. Also, it depends on what you define as the urban core. Downtown has a very low crime rate, I believe it's lower than the plaza's. However you enter neighborhoods like Prospect, and there is a much higher crime rate there. Just read Jane Jacobs and you will understand more.

If Kansas City wasn't so spread out, we wouldn't have as many crimes because the police wouldn't be so spread out and could focus on a single area. Look at NYC for example, especially Manhattan. It doesn't have a very high crime rate (at least, homicides) compared to other cities. Yet it is the most dense of all American cities. The more spread out you are, the higher the crime, and less spread out you are, the lower the crime. Also, many crimes do occur in the urban core, however you must keep in mind that they aren't random acts of violence, and that those areas don't have good police funding or coverage.

Either way, Kansas City doesn't have an extremely high crime rate compared to other cities. Also, i'm not denying it has most to do with poverty rate. If you look at the maps of Irving (which is in no way comparable to KC), the densest areas don't have a lot of crime compared with the poverty stricken areas. --KCMODevin 19:36, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

You should probably watch the local news once in a while. I wish we could say the crimes were confined to a relatively small inner city area. However looking at the [KCPD maps], the crimes take place in a pretty big swath south of the river. On the basis of this discussion I've become obsessed with the the United States cities by crime rate which shows KC ranking #8 in the murder rate in 2004 for cities over 400,000. I'm going to rewrite those tables with [data from 2005] for cities over 300,000. KC with 126 murders will rank #5 behind, Baltimore, Detroit, St. Louis and DC (St. Louis didn't show on the earlier wiki table because it was less than 400,000). If you look at the stats in the Kansas City Homicide Quarterly, the vast majority of the murders were black on black, involved cases where the VICTIMS had criminal records and were mostly men under 25 (sounds like gangs to me). As been mentioned elswhere in this discussion, wikipedia is an encyclopeda and not a p.r. outlet. Like it or not, KC is notable for its crime. Welcome to Killa City. Americasroof 20:45, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Devin, you'll get no argument on "sprawl is bad" from me (even though it's an opinion, not a cited fact), but you can't take that and then say that "The more spread out you are, the higher the crime"; that would make Montana the crime center of the United States! Obviously Laclede County, Missouri doesn't have the same problems as Jackson County, Missouri. I do know something about crime statistics, as it happens. You even seemed to say at the end that it is in fact about socioeconomic status, not density, so I'm not really sure where you're going with this idea... -- nae'blis 22:35, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Wow AmericasRoof you've shown just how little you know about the KC area... There is a reason I don't watch local news... It's all trash and is worthless. And by the way, you are forgetting that while we have 124 murders, that those 124 are in a city of 313.5 square miles. If you counted the murders just in the urban core, the number would be lower than that. I suggest you visit KCSkyscrapers.com sometime, and try to tell them that we are a dangerous, crime ridden city. Also, that name is very disrespectful to our great city, it has no place on Wikipedia. Americasroof, you just seem like the normal KC suburbanite... Nae'blis, you should read all of my reply, not just parts of it. I admitted that crime is mostly connected to poverty rate. And Americasroof, the best thing for you to do is to stop watching the local trash, bias, negative reporting media, and stop reading so much of the liberal KC Star. Kevin Collison is the only writer for the Star that people need to listen to, and the local news, well, KCTV5, WDAFTV4, KMBC9, etc... are all negative, bias, trash news stations. Start looking at the facts Americasroof, and stop listening to the local media, it's all negative trash. Saying we are the 5th most dangerous city in the country (among cities of 400,000) is a deliberate lie and a false statistic. I know people who have walked from Downtown to the Plaza, and even from Johnson County to the River Market, and I know people who walk all around Downtown, Midtown and the Plaza. They've never been harmed. --KCMODevin 23:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Devin, as a neutral observer, with no vested interest in the KC area, I'd encourage you to step back and calm down. Another editor suggested that perhaps you shouldn't be editing articles you're so close to. You may wish to consider this, at least temporarily, as it is obvious that your judgement in the KC articles is coloured by your enthusiasm for your home town. (This is perfectly natural, by the way, and certainly nothing to be ashamed about. It is, however, not appropriate for creating an encyclopedia article.) There are a lot of things I'd rather not see in the Vancouver article, for example: our Downtown Eastside neighbourhood won't sell the city to tourists. However, it is a reality, and soft-selling the problem on Wikipedia is not going to make it go away. By the way, your standard for judging the safety of the city (" I know people who walk all around Downtown, Midtown and the Plaza. They've never been harmed.") isn't particularly reassuring; I would hope that one would consider that feat to be perfectly normal, rather than something exceptional. For that matter, the murder rate isn't exactly what I would call "low" either. 124 murders is higher than the total for all of British Columbia (almost 4 million residents, 112 homicides in 2004) - and it doesn't compare well to Canada as a whole, with 622 homicides in 2004. Just my two cents. --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, please don't misinterpret my last post as a condemnation of KC - it sounds like an interesting place. I've never been there, but that is due to the fact that it's a bit out of the way from where I am... Having a realistic understanding of the city won't stop people from visiting, and it will make them feel a lot more reassured when they do come. (As opposed to the typical travelogue nonsense which paints every town as paradise, a myth which is quickly dispelled as soon as one arrives!) --Ckatz^chat_spy 00:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Ckatz, no one understands that I will be spending my entire life in Kansas City, trying to improve it through artchitecture and design. I have spent more than 5 years promoting Kansas City on the internet. Without me, there would be virtually no information about KC on SkyscraperPage, there would be less information on Wikipedia. I've promoted KC on SSP, SkyscraperCity, UrbanPlanet, etc... I've done days upon days of research on Kansas City for the past 5 years. I've talked with city officials, developers, architects, and just normal ppl. My statement about people walking that far wasn't meant to make it sound like a feat to a normal person... However to a typical KC suburbanite, they'd consider that a big feat that would be very dangerous. (when it actually isn't) I am getting upset because i'm very passionate about this city. I know it isn't perfect, and while I don't deny that parts of the city are dangerous, I choose to ignore it. If I wasn't so passionate about it, I wouldn't want to dedicate my entire life to improving it. I am willing to even sacrifice personal wealth to improve the urban core, not only Downtown, but areas like around Prospect. I don't mind neutral point of views, but I don't like negative point of views being heard on this subject. People can know the crime rate is somewhat high, and should know what areas to avoid, but they shouldn't be told the entire city is dangerous, or that only the suburbs are safe. That is what Johnson County wants you to believe, but I'm trying to make sure articles like these are not imbedded with KC-suburbanite type propoganda or statements that make the suburbs seem like a paradise compared to the inner city. --KCMODevin 00:31, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, kudos to you for the effort, and for choosing to focus your passion in an attempt to improve your home town. Your enthusiasm can be an incredibly valuable asset to this encyclopedia, and should be encouraged, assisted, and supported. Just remember, though, that improving Kansas City and improving Wikipedia are two very different tasks, which may not always be mutually compatible. You can certainly choose to ignore the dangerous aspects of the city in your personal and professional dealings, as you see fit. However, in your role as a Wikipedia editor, you have to take a more objective view of the city, and make every attempt to represent both the positive and negative aspects. It is a tough thing to do, and it really is challenging to write something negative about a place that you treasure. The end result, though, can be a balanced, well-rounded article that fairly and accurately represents Kansas City. My personal believe is that readers are far more media-savvy these days, and less likely to accept an article that only paints a positive picture (or, going the opposite direction, only a negative spin on things.) --Ckatz^chat_spy 05:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Ckatz, regarding your last revision... Do we really need a citation for the Downtown information in the crime section? Everyone knows from many sources such as the Downtown Council, and the KC Star that Downtown crime is low and that many people are moving there... It'll take me a long time to find the citations for that information. Can't you just link them to the Downtown KC & Downtown KC Redevelopment articles? --KCMODevin 11:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

If it's cited in the Downtown article and linked directly to it in that paragraph, we can probably get away with not repeating the citation here, but "everyone knows" is only usable in very limited circumstances (we don't have to cite that Missouri and Kansas border each other, for example). -- nae'blis 15:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The information should really be in the main article AND any article that references it. Links to other Wikipedia articles don't count, unless they are properly cited - and even then you are taking a chance that nothing will change on that page. As Nae'blis said, you wouldn't need to verify that Kansas and Missouri are neighbouring states. However, anything that involves statistics, population figures, crime rates, and so on should be cited. Otherwise, there is no way to verify that the information is accurate. (This affects other editors who wish to check facts, and readers who want to follow up on information they get from Wikipedia.) The open nature of Wikipedia makes it essential that everything is well-documented; the same policy that allows anyone to edit means that anyone can change things. You would be amazed at how often certain articles are vandalized - before Canada was semi-protected, I would notice many edits every day that were just anons having "fun". The KC articles have, in recent weeks, gained new attention because of the series "Jericho" (that's what led me here) and are probably getting more "out-of-town" readers who won't have any of the "common knowledge" that a resident can take for granted. Besides, references are "cheap" - one good citation can cover a lot of facts, it doesn't take up much screen space, and it makes the article look more professional. (Just remember to avoid using blogs and web sites that fail the "notability" test - something from the local/state/federal government is good, but a comment on a personal blog won't hold up.) Cheers. --Ckatz^chat_spy 04:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

However, it isn't possible do a reference on the information as the KCPD website has not been up recently. Also, we cannot leave people hanging, thinking falsely that the entire city is dangerous. Reading something that says we may/may not have a high crime rate may lead them to have the idiotic suburban mentality that says most crime occurs in the inner city. Thus if they decide to form an opinion about KC, it would automatically lean to the negative side for the urban core, because there is nothing in the article that states only parts of the urban core have high crime. --KCMODevin 04:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Apparently links from KCMO.org to KCPD.org were bad links... It isn't actually down --KCMODevin 04:54, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Information on crime in KC from the KCPD website: http://www.kcpd.org/

87 homicides so far in 2006 127 total in 2005 91 in 2004 92 in 2003 So far it looks like 2005 was a freak year, and as I remember, new years last year started off with several homicides immediately.

Also according to their information, there has been only a single homicide in DTKC apparently at the Police HQ, and no aggravated hotspots are located in Downtown. (one hotspot is barely in the DTKC boundary, on the border between midtown and downtown) The only robbery hotspot DT is near the Central Business District around the major banks and government buildings. Things like Auto-theft and theft from auto, and burglary exist Downtown, but not at the level they do in comparison to the areas around Downtown. --KCMODevin 05:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This all gets back to the earlier debate of what downtown is. The city defines it as 31st Street and that puts two hot spots on either side. But most people view Union Station as the southern edge and so yes downtown is save. Yes, KC is basically pretty safe if you're white and keep out of the problem areas. Almost all the crime is black on black. There was an astonishing 21 drive by shootings in September. That doesn't bode well for the rest of the year. It's amazing that the police have to keep that stat. Even if KC "only" has 100 or so murders in 2006, it will still have a very high rate. Unfortunately, we're going to have to look to see how Detroit handles all this. And they include the crime stuff.

07:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The issue isn't the borders of Downtown. The official borders of Downtown according to City Hall and the Downtown Council: River to 31st St. I435 to Bruce R. Watkins. People can certainly have their own opinions, but what is official is official and nothing can really change that unless they change it themselves. However the hotspots for aggravated assault are not in Downtown itself... One is in the West Side, just west of I435, and the other is right on 31st St. in SE DT and northern midtown. Even talking to people I know who live Downtown, it's not that dangerous of a place. When a rape occured in Quality Hill, they weren't really surprised, but were upset about it and it seemed like rapes were not very common Downtown. Just do not trust KCTV5, Fox 4, KMBC9, KSHB, or even the Kansas City Star. The TV stations generally make it seem like it is dangerous for any suburbanite to go Downtown, and none of the anchors really live Downtown themselves or even know much about it. The Kansas City Star is just a normal, liberal, pro-suburbanite newspaper. The most coverage Downtown gets is on the side of redevelopment, and that is well represented by Kevin Collison. There are also reasons crime is in Downtown so much compared to other neighborhoods. (however it has the least out of the surrounding areas, except for the plaza, which is a much smaller area.) Poverty rates in surrounding neighborhoods are poor. Downtown is a place where you have government and big businesses in one area. You have lots of cars in a small area. You also have well over 15,000 people (which was the figure in Jan. 2005, it should now be over 17,000) in 2.9 square miles. Most of which are medium to upper income. It in a way, is the candy store, and the bad neighborhoods are breeding some bad people that choose to be the children in the candy store, who steal and run back to these neighborhoods which shelter them. It isn't impossible to rehabilitate these neighborhoods. This is what I hope to do in my future. Use my beliefs, and use Jane Jacob's ideas to rehabilitate these neighborhoods. These people in poverty don't need to be evicted, however their neighborhoods can be improved. They need community leaders to help uphold the law. Their children need things to keep them out of trouble. They need good police coverage, and they need local small businesses that can be run by local people. There is a lot more that needs to be done, and I don't fully understand it yet. However, I hope to improve these neighborhoods using architecture and design in my future. Improving these neighborhoods will not only improve the inner core, and it's image, but also will bring more people into the urban core, and especially Downtown itself. --KCMODevin 11:30, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] further editing future

The page is now 50k in length, which is almost 50% longer than it should be (Wikipedia:Article size). What sections might be able to be split out to their own page, logically? Unfortunately when I look at it I see a lot of small sections, none of which independently seem to be able to stand on their own as subarticles. History of Kansas City already has its own article, and is 36k by itself. -- nae'blis 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, the water purity award seems really awkward in the header (and I'm the one who put it there). Maybe a section on awards and commendations? The All America City award would go there as well, and the website won awards for being among the top most useful municipal websites in the late 1990s/early 2000s. -- nae'blis 14:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Urgh. And I've been wanting to add a Flora and Fauna bit like St. Louis has (mainly because of the Monarch Butterfly route through the area). I think the lists should go first. Schools could be a seperate article. I see a lot of other city articles done that way, like Dallas. Sites of Interest should really be written out instead of listed, and could really be a separate article.

Also, I think they've relaxed the maximum size limitations somewhat. I'll have to try to find where I read that. Dallas is 79k. Detroit is 84k and a Featured Article. --Hobbes747 18:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

The bit about water quality speaks on the quality of life in KC, as well as on the local environment, and could be included in either one. However, as it anecdotally is representative of the importance of nature and the environment in this city (I've seen many visitors remark on how park-like the entire city is, with all the trees and natural elements of the city plan), and as such does fit into the header, if just barely. Plus, as a recent award, it is temporally significant - it fits in now, but maybe not in another 5 years. Perhaps have a sentence or two in the header commenting on KC's award-winning water supply/environmental.. whatever, and then expand on it with specifics about such award(s) in a specific subsection.
Yes, the page is getting long... but then again, so are a lot of other pages. I say that, though we shouldn't add information for the sake of making a large article, we also shouldn't cut info just for the sake of shortening the article. As long as the info is encyclopedic and not merely trivial, I say put it in. Of course, that doesn't mean it has to go in this particular article. If we keep adding info into subsections until they spawn off into their own main article leaving only a summary in this one, well, that accomplishes both goals at once. --Reverend Loki 19:59, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Light Rail

Finally! Light rail baby... It's just sad that it required Chastain to pass a plan (though faulty), hopefully the city will wake up and revise this for decent funding and start work in a few years. Not to mention remove the aerial gondola system included for Penn Valley Park. --KCMODevin 05:41, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Also, I made sure the update was neutral, or at least it appears to be neutral. --KCMODevin 05:46, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, he better acquaint himself with the Northland. He just drew a marker up the old interurban (surrounded by a bunch of backyards now; Zona Rosa's a mile west) and didn't bother to touch the bulk of Clay County. I'm still in disbelief, and I've been compared to the expatriate idealist.--KHill-LTown 06:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No way. Well awesome! Anyone remember when Chastain threw the stack of papers in City Hall? What a goof. --Hobbes747 19:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

From what I understand, it's still far from becoming a reality. City hall can still reject it if the plan is outright unfeasible, which it may very well be. I believe the plan makes certain broad assumptions about the overall cost of the project and just how much matching funding we'll get from state and federal government. I'd personally love a good light rail system, but we'll see. --Reverend Loki 19:59, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the city government (err council) is coming out in support of light rail, and said they will honor voters, but will have to work on funding it. --KCMODevin 20:04, 9 November 2006 (UTC)