User talk:NikoSilver

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[edit] Remarks

I will post responses below your comment right here, so "watch" my page (or select to watch whatever you edit in your prefs). Same I will expect from you when I message you. Otherwise, continuity is completely lost.
You can spy if you want... Only morons don't use e-mail when they want to conspire...
My e-mail application actually has a bell thingy. I'll read them faster if you don't message me as well that you sent me one. Actually, it'd be more alarming to send me an e-mail, telling me you've left a message in my talk! :-)
This talk is being automatically archived using User:Werdnabot/Archiver. All comments that are older than 10 days are removed and placed in the respective archive. In the rare case I don't respond to a comment, please remind me so.
Sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) that produce your name and the datestamp. The automatic archive doesn't work if it doesn't see a timestamp!

:NikoSilver:

Δε θα κάνεις archive το talk page σου ποτέ; Telex 1 3 : 0 5 , 2 M a y 2 0 0 6 ( U T C )

Μπα! :NikoSilver: ^{(T) @ (C)} 1 3 : 1 8 , 2 M a y 2 0 0 6 ( U T C )

1 Remarks
2 Warning
3 Sources
4 History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter - Issue III - November 2006
5 By the way
6 Hey Sandy
7 Help...

[edit] Warning

You have recently added highly provocative content to the Wikipedia page Image:Ferretti 68'.jpg, which is likely to make other Wikipedians envious and thereby provide scandal to them ([1]). You are now being asked to reconsider this type of behavior. You are welcome to continue covering the topic of luxury yachts in Wikipedia, but instead of just writing about them you should consider actually inviting a few fellow Wikipedians on one. Please see Wikipedia's retribution policy, which states that Wikipedia is communism and that if luxury yachts are not shared in a brotherly fashion with fellow Wikipedians, they risk being swallowed whole by a giant shark some day.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! If we do that in December, these are definitely going to freeze off! •NikoSilver• 15:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

This is your last warning. If you continue being selfish, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia and all your possessions confiscated by the Supreme Cabal Regime of the English Wikipedia in the name of the brotherly spirit. Duja► 16:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Trouble is, Duja, can you actually steer the thing? We might still need him onboard, you know. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:34, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. No. Can you? We can still enslave him instead of throwing him to sharks. Duja► 16:46, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Did it occur to any of you that since I said I took that photo, I couldn't have been onboard but on the port-side? But then again, I could have been on a bigger one... And, no, you can't enslave da captain. You have to ask his wife first. :-) •NikoSilver• 19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm.... I had heard somebody had bought the British queen's yacht, now we know who ;-) Regarding your question sorry for awnsering so late, I'm quite oberated by true-life work, unfortunately :-( I've been looking your article, great work. As for info. you may (or may not) find interesting, 1) The group's shareholders have deliberated in September to put in the Italian stock exchange a maximum of 45 million of shares, for a value each of 0.02 euros. Up to the 35% of the group may in this way be ceded. At the moment the 70% of the group is controlled by Permira [2] And see also this press release in English, on how Permira bought Ferretti in 2002.[3] And the full Business Week partly mentioned through the Ferretti website [4]. For very new info, Palmira, appears to have just sold Ferretti to Candover, see the Times, Oct. 28 [5]. Hope this is of some use. Ciao,--Aldux 23:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Shall I paste them here? - Francis Tyers · 14:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha! :)) - Francis Tyers · 14:39, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You may also be interested in this! •NikoSilver• 17:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just take care you don't end up like this, the two of you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:47, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

:) - Francis Tyers · 15:48, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha! Just links to all 400 please. Then I'll just drop a dozen more (courtesy of you-know-who) to make you search until the end of time! •NikoSilver• 14:41, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I removed the http:// on some of those, but there was not an easier way to do the edit conflict. I'm getting RSI :/ - Francis Tyers · 16:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

http://www.cs.earlham.edu/~dusko/language.html
http://babel.uoregon.edu/yamada/guides/macedonian.html
http://www.asu.edu/clas/reesc/cli/ohrid1.htm
http://www.unc.edu/~bbiljana/MKDtutorial.html
home.uchicago.edu/~vfriedm/courses.html
chronicle.uchicago.edu/981112/friedman.shtml
www.indiana.edu/~reeiweb/index/southeast.shtml
www.auburn.edu/~mitrege/cv-big.html
www.lib.virginia.edu/subjects/slavic/maclang.html
black.clarku.edu/~seesa/HTMLpages/Publications2000interest.html
www.indiana.edu/~bulletin/iub/coas/2006-2008/slavic.shtml
www.libraries.psu.edu/tas/cataloging/train/practice3.htm
www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/NaylorLectures/NaylorBrochure(2002).pdf
www.diplomacy.edu/DiploNews/issue37.asp
http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/briefing/daily_briefings/1991/9110/161.html -- calls it 'Greek with Slavic elements' lol
collegecatalog.uchicago.edu/archives/catalog99-00/htm/Ling99.html
babel.ling.northwestern.edu/~rajka/syllabus.pdf
www.american.edu/TED/macedon.htm
www.law.nyu.edu/eecr/vol10num4/constitutionwatch/macedonia.html
www.cla.auburn.edu/faculty/research/news.htm
www.haverford.edu/relg/sells/reports/ruga.htm
www.uoregon.edu/~delancey/courses/211/assign211.html
www.international.ucla.edu/euro/article.asp?parentid=22991
www.uwm.edu/News/report/old/dec95/9794.html
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indylaw.indiana.edu/humanrights/publications/bulletinv4n1.pdf
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www.du.edu/~etuttle/misc/europe.htm
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For instance it is less important to know, whether ancient Macedonia has anything to do with modern Greeks or Macedonians. But the emotions that it provokes and the linguistic rituals that surround it (e.g. the taboos, the apparent disgust, the obligatory indignation, etc.) are certainly an essential part of those two national identities.
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Don't let me interrupt you; you have some 218x100=21,800 more to list. Please continue... •NikoSilver• 17:05, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, mailing list posts don't count :) - Francis Tyers · 17:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

And besides, most of those refer to the ethnicity, not the language. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Hah! I thought you'd say that. Just wanted to give you a little more hope. Here you are: 195x100=19,500 more please. Oh, and I doubt you want to force each side scrutinize all of its links for possible flaws... •NikoSilver• 18:58, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, please do. I read all of those. The only possible flaw is that some of them are written by ethnic Macedonians. But then there are some written by Greeks too. - Francis Tyers · 08:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And I think you mean 7*100 = 700, but not really because mailing list posts don't count. So thats 7 - 6 = 1 * 100 = 100. Quite an easy feat.

[edit] More...

So at most 28. But some of those are duplicates, and some are irrelevant. Some are cancelled out by the fact that the author uses it in a quote by a Greek, whereas when he is writing he uses only "Macedonian language". If you want I'll go through and find how many there really are, then we can continue this clown parade. - Francis Tyers · 08:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Look, I am not trying to rename the article to Slavomacedonian language or to Macedonian Slavic. I am just saying that it is not as rare as you want to make it sound. You can't just count dozens of times the UN or the COE, as you have listed it multiple times above. Indeed a 'clown' parade (in the sense of 'clone', coz you've cloned all of your sources). 21 books (including Pulton, Lunt, Wilkinson) plus the Ethnologue is a lot. It definitely doesn't deserve being removed from the article. •NikoSilver• 14:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Cloned all my sources, nonsense. Each of those is a unique url, with a unique mention. You know I could find another hundred anyway to replace those. But I don't need to as I have made my point. The point being that the name "*Slav*Macedonian" is vastly, overwhelmingly, not used. I'm not talking about disambiguation here (which we have in the form of a disambiguation note), but I'm talking about use as a name, a regular point of reference. I'm willing to make another wager, that the times that Poulton, Lunt and Wilkinson mention "Macedonian language" (without disambiguation) is greater than the amount of times they mention "*Slavic*Macedonian language". I'll start the betting with a factor of ten. You are welcome to raise the stakes. - Francis Tyers · 14:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

How is every single document of the UN or COE a unique source? You'd lose the bet with Wilkinson at least, coz I happen to have read it, and the guy says something extremely reasonable like: This book uses the term Macedo-Slav for the Macedonians of Slavic origin and their language. He says this once, and from then on he uses Macedo-Slav dozens of times. I'll find the exact quote for you. •NikoSilver• 14:56, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ha ha! So does Poulton! In fact, whenever he uses Macedonian language alone, he uses scare quotes [6]. Tough luck. •NikoSilver• 15:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ...and more...

Wilkinson, H. R. (1952) "Jugoslav Macedonia in Transition". The Geographical Journal.

"... extreme measures were adopted to purify the Macedonian language ..."
"A distinctive Macedonian language could be regarded as a guarantee against irredentism."

Poulton, H. Who are the Macedonians?

"... believe the current Macedonian language is a dialect of Bulgarian ..."
"...a Macedonian language based on the Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Ohrid dialects..."
"...that in this period the use of the Macedonian language was forbidden ..."
"The Macedonian language as adopted by ASNOM was also to be the official ..."

- Francis Tyers · 16:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Do you want me to bother with Lunt? - Francis Tyers · 16:12, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wilkinson: I have the book at home, I'll give you refs tonight.

Poulton: You missed these:

- Page 3: ... and thus the language ‘Macedonian' refers to their spoken language which ...
  - Doesn't count, doesn't mention 'Slav' -- he just puts it in quotes, which is another form of disambiguation I guess.
    - Ok, maybe we should use the same technique in the article? Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 5: speaking a Slav-based language (although modem Slav Macedonian historians in ...
  - Doesn't mention the language.
    - Precisely. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 13: They also spoke the language of their people, ‘Macedonian', which contained ...
  - Doesn't count, see above.
    - You too. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Page 88: ... , defended it on the grounds that the Macedonian Slav language was ...
  - Counts, but only 1 mention.
    - I don't need more, but check above. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Lunt: I can't find it on the web. Probably your FYROM partisan bosses will send you selective quotations from that one too along with your confessed payment!! •NikoSilver• 16:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha :)) Give me a second. - Francis Tyers · 16:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Niko, pleaaaase. Stop it already, you lost this, and you know it...:-)

You know I'm quite neutral at heart on this one; in fact I was initially quite for a full coverage of "Slavomacedonian" and the like in the header. But Francis has convinced me. I've checked his references, and I've checked yours. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes you are, but there's more to it. Again, I am not trying to rename the article. I am just listing a fairly used alternative name, as is the convention in WP, and as we've done in hundreds of other articles where there is much less preminence. Niko Silver 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Check COE here too: [7]. Back in a sec with more... •NikoSilver• 17:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is 1 reference compared to all the references from the COE that I gave. - Francis Tyers · 17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

And this: [8]. •NikoSilver• 17:14, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Die bulgarisch-jugoslawische Kontroverse um Makedonien 1967-1982" is what you are presumably referring to? I'd have to see the rest of the article. He may be doing "simple disambiguation", or he may be using it as a name. - Francis Tyers · 17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that, and the review itself. Niko Silver 12:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And this: CNN •NikoSilver• 17:19, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Macedonian is the language closest to Old Slavic" (from the CNN link -- not that I think CNN is a reliable source) - Francis Tyers · 17:23, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
- Check how else it calls it. •NikoSilver• 17:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok, CNN is one for one (like it matters). - Francis Tyers · 17:27, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I am not searching for 'academics'. I thought we have cleared it out that we are just searching for usage in English. CNN is very indicative on that aspect. Niko Silver 12:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And since you mentioned Britannica, check how they disambiguate it here: [9], while ofcourse they don't do that for any other language. •NikoSilver• 17:24, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, disambiguation, just like we have at the top of the article. - Francis Tyers · 17:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well that's the part where you're wrong m'lad. The dab on the top is one thing, and the alternative names another thing. I'll be back later... •NikoSilver• 17:30, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I leave work at sometime after 6pm, don't miss me if I'm gone! :) - Francis Tyers · 17:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Wilkinson:
- Preface, p.vii: "The name Macedo-Slav is italicized throughout because of its association with J.Cvijić. It is a better descriptive term than 'Macedonian' which is often used to refer to all nationals of the Jugoslav Republic of Macedonia, including Slav, Albanian and Turkish elements."
- p.177 "A.Belić and V.Jagić -both Serbians- had established the fact that the Macedo-Slav dialect was transitional between Serb and Bulgarian."
- p.276-7 "He [A.Meillet] pointed out that the Serbian statistics had erred in referring to the Macedo-Slav dialect as Serbo-Croat."
- p.257 "But since the Macedo-Slav dialect was regarded as a branch of Serbo-Croat, the map lost a great deal of its value."
- p.307 "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slav and it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria." WOW!
- p.331 "As n illustration of the analogy between the Serb, Macedo-Slav and Bulgarian languages, Weigand compared the dialect of Bitolj with that of Sofia (Sop dialect) and Serbo-Croat."

Nice to see the UK navy classified it as such too. :-) Apart from the name, I definitely urge you to get a hold of this magnificent book. It has an extremely detailed analysis of all ethnographic maps ever produced in the region. I've never come across so much condensed information about Macedonian people/languages/religions before. No doubt, Wilkinson is the number one source for the whole region. •NikoSilver• 21:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New

Note to outsiders: Francis and I have a long history which allows us to be both uncivil to each-other and sarcastic on the (pretence?) basis of mutual respect and humor. :-) If you don't belong in this cabal, don't be offended, and do not indulge in doing the same.

Its true you know! - Francis Tyers · 13:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There's more where this is coming from. NikoSilver 00:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ok Niko, first of all, Wilkinson is a reliable source. I'll give you that. I'll give you that in the book you have by him, (dated 1951) he uses "Macedonian-Slav" to describe the language. However, this was before the language was entirely standardised, and also, in the 1952 paper I have, he uses "Macedonian language" (no Slav). I'm not sure what you're trying to gain with pasting all those links, because at least "http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=0521223156&ss=exc" <-- this one, doesn't mention "Macedonian Slavic" at all! In fact, it mentions: "The name of the Macedonian language is also disputed by the Greeks and Bulgarians, but we shall follow the established Slavists’ convention and use “Macedonian”, since there is no other language competing for this name (2.2.3)." - Francis Tyers · 10:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Πώς τα βρήκες όλα αυτά, εγώ γιατί δεν τα βρήκα όταν έψαξα;--Euthymios 10:33, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

How did I find them? Click on the spider-like gizmo below my scuba pic to see who gave them to me. (I'll get back on Fran's assertions too when I receive the proper input). NikoSilver 10:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Fran: Correct on that one link from Cambridge. I was confused by this quote:

Moreover, not all the properties of the languages form such intra-Slavic genetic groupings. Balkan languages like Bulgarian and Macedonian (Slavic), Romanian (Romance) and Albanian (an Indo-European language-isolate), in a geographically coherent area, are genetically part of different sub-branches of Indo-European, but show similar post-posed article forms.

...but apparently 'Slavic' goes to both Bulgarian and that other. I don't remove the paper, however, due to the exact quote you posted, which reflects it is an convention of Slavists -hence it accepts that the academic community has not consented yet on the name. As for Wilkinson (and other sources of the 50's), I think that 55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely. For historical purposes and only (if we didn't have contemporary sources) the Slavic compound should stay in the intro. We can reflect that in the text if you wish. Now go ahead and scrutinize the rest of them if you wish. (oh, I saw you already did -edit conflict) I'll get back with responses and I'm pasting more later today. NikoSilver 11:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It being a Slavists convention does not exclude it from being other conventions. It may not be a Classics convention, but then the Classisists probably don't talk about that Macedonian language at all. They only talk about the other Macedonian language, thus not requiring disambiguation. - Francis Tyers · 11:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You want me to remove it? I think my point is clear: Slavists convention (not even linguists). You didn't respond about the historical issue which also shows that such sources are unfairly excluded from the net. NikoSilver 11:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, remove it. Regarding the historical issue, I have presented sources from many decades. "55 years are a very small time for a language to be renamed completely", not so. It can be done in a very short amount of time. The problem with your historical point is that I've presented sources from the year after showing Wilkinson using Macedonian language sans "*Slav*". We have a wide range of historical and contemporary sources showing that the name is and was "Macedonian language". Perhaps a note could go in the Ancient Macedonian language article stating that prior to the inauguration of the Macedonian language, typically the Ancient Macedonian language was referred to as such? But even then I'm not so sure that is right, and how much pedigree "Ancient Macedonian language" has as a descriptor or name for that language. - Francis Tyers · 12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Still, the term has wide historical usage which can be found in pre-internet sources. Apart from that, Slavic, is used for apparently a number of reasons:

To dab from XMK
To dab from other languages in the FYROM (Albanian-Turkish, see Wilkinson)
To satisfy those freaking nationalist Macedonians (Greek) and the Epsilon Team who dare suggest that their history and culture is not only being robbed off, but also monopolized by the violation of their right to be able to self-identify as 'Macedonians', speaking 'Macedonian' in 'Macedonia'. (not to forget: while their sovereignity is severely questioned at the same time) Niko Silver 12:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how much I have to do to convince you that I don't share their vision of history. Perhaps you could send me a badge to wear? "This user subscribes to the international historical consensus on the history of Macedonia" ? Kind of large for a badge though, maybe a sign? You could write it multilingually in Greek, English and Macedonian!

You need to convince me that your subscription to the international historic consensus, your concerns about stability, and your concerns about those other fellow's self-determination rights, are a reason to not censor their rightful concerns from every f***ing article related to their counterparts. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I have never said that Macedonians shouldn't be able to call themselves Macedonians, and you know it. - Francis Tyers · 14:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The same way I can be called Francis Tyers (or that promiscuous other without the space) I suppose... Niko Silver 15:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I would never consider monopolising my noble name! Francis Morton Tyers if you want the full "treatment" ;) - Francis Tyers · 15:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I suppose if you were the Rockefeller of culture and history you would definitely oppose, you little insignificant POV-pusher... Niko Silver 16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

:)) - Francis Tyers · 16:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A million times, we have a DAB, I added it. Some people didn't want "Slavic" there, but I added it, because it is a very useful disambiguation tool in that place. It doesn't need disambiguating from Albanian or Turkish as they have their own names!

Remove the word 'Slavic' from the dab if it suits you. I want the intro. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No deal. The dab note is the perfect, ideal place for disambiguation, which is what we are trying to achieve. - Francis Tyers · 14:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Whatever they are giving you, we double it. I only offered to remove the dab note because you were concerned about it. Prepare to be dazzled by my sources if you don't accept the compromise... Niko Silver 15:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Haha :) You never got back to me about that PS in the email I sent ;) - Francis Tyers · 15:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Awww! Just checked e-mail history! Seriously I hadn't noticed the whole message and thought you hadn't received mine! About the PS, don't worry, an associate will contact you soon... Niko Silver 16:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You have yet to show that "*Slav*Macedonian*Slav*" as a name of the language is as widely used either now or then than simply "Macedonian language". Most of the sources you have come up with are of a low quality (with some exceptions). But the exceptions (as I think you've said before), prove the rule.

You are unfair, and we'll definitely see that when you let me finish. Niko Silver 13:43, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Here is my final compromise (yes, another one), we change the disambiguation note to say: "This article is about the Slavic Macedonian language. For the unrelated, non-Slavic language spoken in the ancient world, see Ancient Macedonian language." What say you? - Francis Tyers · 12:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Think about it for a while (a day or longer if necessary). It gets your "name" [Slavic Macedonian language N] into the first line of the article. While I just see it as a disambiguation device [Slavic ADJ [Macedonian language N]]. Suits both of us. - Francis Tyers · 12:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with your rationale pointing to a necessity for a compromise. I am not rejecting your proposal first hand though. Let's wait a couple of days to see how many more f***ing sources will satisfy your FYROM-payroll [part of body]. Shall we? I'll even do a cleanup of those already posted and paste them alltogether below. Niko Silver 13:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, both myself and Fut. Perf. disagree with the current version, and while you may have numerical superiority, I think it is better to have a version we all agree on. I was presenting this as a possible version that we could all agree on, as per my rationale above. - Francis Tyers · 13:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

There is another compromise version that comes to mind, but I suggest you let me source this further. Numerical superiority is inferior to arguments/sources and you know I don't count on that. Niko Silver 14:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, which is why we're still discussing this :)) - Francis Tyers · 14:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Did you even read [10] ? Look down the bottom for a hint as to why it isn't a reliable source :) - Francis Tyers · 10:50, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes I did. Now click 'about us' to see who's quoting that source. NikoSilver 11:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a spam site. - Francis Tyers · 11:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Curiously enough it doesn't choose to 'spam' the other version... NikoSilver 11:42, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't mention *Slav*, in fact it uses "Macedonian" all the way through. - Francis Tyers · 10:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It does, but not twice. The full quote is "it has been suspected that the arrest is because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian...". NikoSilver 11:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Ethnicity not language. - Francis Tyers · 11:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Both. NikoSilver 11:40, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You left out the important bit! "because Vottaris, a (Slav) Macedonian, has been transmitting traditional songs and dances in the Macedonian language on air." - Francis Tyers · 12:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I left it out because I don't use the term as a matter of principle. It was obvious. What is your point? Niko Silver 12:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't mention language -- talks about Slav Macedonian dialects, which is not the same thing :) - Francis Tyers · 10:53, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Removed, I thought you'd find interesting that...

P.Zografski also prepared a number of primers written in the local vernacular of Western Macedonia. In the early 1870s, V. Mačukovski, a teacher in Ohrid and Salonica, prepared one of the first primers that used the western Slav Macedonian dialects.

NikoSilver 11:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Aye, it is interesting, but a shame that it doesn't have references :( - Francis Tyers · 11:27, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Read the rest of it for your article :-) NikoSilver 11:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one doesn't even mention Macedonian at all. - Francis Tyers · 10:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

It does. Here is a bit from the text which clearly uses it among other languages. Care to download it for full reference? NikoSilver 11:28, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to see more context. Not necessarily the full article though. - Francis Tyers · 11:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Well we don't have a subscription just yet. Niko Silver 12:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This one uses "Slavic" as a disambiguator, and uses "Macedonian" as the name of the language. - Francis Tyers · 10:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh? How about this then: "Macedonian means here Slavic Macedonian, in the sense it is used in the science of linguistics." Niko Silver 11:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, disambiguation, as in "Macedonian means here Slavic Macedonian, not Ancient Macedonian" - Francis Tyers · 11:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. Niko Silver 12:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree, disambiguation not name :) -- an important distinction to make :) - Francis Tyers · 12:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

A dab name. Niko Silver 12:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Newer

SOCIALIST REVIEW, published by your Socialist Workers Party

The SWP is not a reliable source. You know I've been to their conferences? One in Dublin and one at the LSE in London. They sing the Internationale at the end. In fact IIRC, the SWP is specifically listed on Wikipedia:Reliable sources. - Francis Tyers · 16:49, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Both terms from the Defence Academy of the UK. This article is very interesting in general. Read it if you have time, as it explains some deeper roots of the problem... (I wish they could see that...)

Doesn't mention "Macedonian-Slav language", it mentions "Macedonian language", and also "Macedonian-Slav tongue". This is a neutral source as it could easily be taken as supporting both of our sides. - Francis Tyers · 16:52, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You seriously object to the language/tongue thing? It's an alternative name and they are listing it. Niko Silver 16:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, all of my references are to "Macedonian language". If you want a reference to count it must use *language* (that's Kleene star btw, not emphasis). - Francis Tyers · 17:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

No comment. Niko Silver 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

~~Bibliography from a professor of the U.Helsinki~~

Lindstedt is pretty cool, I have a paper by him if you are interested? [Lindstedt, J. (2000). “Linguistic Balkanization: Contact-induced change by mutual reinforcement”, D. G. Gilbers & al. (eds.) Languages in Contact, (Studies in Slavic and General Linguistics, 28.), Amsterdam & Atlanta, GA, 2000: Rodopi, 231–246.] He doesn't use the term "Slavic Macedonian language". He calls it "Slavic Macedonian studies", this does not necessarily mean the language. You'll note that in all the bibliography entries, "Macedonian" (sans *Slav*) is used. In his paper he uses "Macedonian language". - Francis Tyers · 16:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Stricken. I don't need to debate any further though. I have established reasonable preminance. Niko Silver 16:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
CNN another one

Acknowledged. One from CNN. - Francis Tyers · 16:57, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This from ECMA (see Ecma International)
This talks about that language in Greece, and is puzzled as to if it is distinct or same to the one up north. (from Europa diversa)

"While far from being satisfactory, such a ‘solution’ has the virtue of accommodating the position of a member state, such a Greece, which appears to have a deeply ingrained problem with accepting the very existence of linguistic diversity on it s territory." Haha. Having said that, it doesn't mention "*Macedonian* language", and it only mentions Slav-Macedonian in the context of Greece. Now, how do you know if this relates to this or Macedonian language this? - Francis Tyers · 17:11, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Hah! Easy! I know because the guy himself claims so in the Rainbow party site! Niko Silver 23:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

And you count them as a reliable source? ;) - Francis Tyers · 00:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Macedonian (Slavonic) in Australia.

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
another

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Actually we have lots more from down under with that name (AU recognizes the language as such -and this only is ENOUGH)

Would support an intro including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" provided it was put in the correct context, as I have outlined below. - Francis Tyers · 17:13, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
And in the whole other world...
Multilingual European Subsets in ISO/IEC 10646-1 from CEN (see CEN)

Granted. - Francis Tyers · 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
and this

Granted. - Francis Tyers · 17:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
This, from this Berkeley guy

Granted. Single use. - Francis Tyers · 17:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

After I checked out the AU status of the language, I cried ENOUGH, having considered the 60 (or what) sources I provided for you, the darn Ethnologue, etc etc. Now will you leave that article alone please, or do you want more? Niko Silver 16:24, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The source you give is 1997, it was revoked after an appeal to the High Court of Australia. Full story: here. - Francis Tyers · 16:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Still it is an alternative name, and very recent one too. You need to add that in that WP:POVFORK of yours. Also, the 'Slavonic' alternative alone produces +300 links alone. Hey! I may even get to rename that article after all, having found more sources than you! :-) Niko Silver 16:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Bye for now, but I am really dissappointed: You knew all along that AU called the language until 1998 as Macedonian (Slavonic), and (1) you wanted to exclude the alternative name from the intro, (2) you wouldn't tell me to expand my search string... Niko Silver 17:02, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You should have read the article, and my posts on the talk page. I specifically posted one for your benefit. - Francis Tyers · 17:04, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Also your results are in no way conclusive. The name change was overturned by the High Court for being discriminatory. You could include it in the introduction as "The language was also known as Macedonian (Slavonic) for a year before the Australian High Court ruled that the government of the state of Victoria acted in an illegal and discriminatory fashion by changing the name." I don't think either of us wants that though. - Francis Tyers · 17:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I've considered your sources. Four of them are acceptable. An extra three are acceptable if we put the name in context. You have not provided 60 sources and I challenge you to list them if you have. At most you have provided 20 reliable sources for my (non-exhaustive) ~~412~~ ~~420~~ 422 reliable sources. If we did the maths, this would result in "*Slav*Macedonian*language" being used 4% of the time. Which I'm quite sure we can all agree is an excessively minority usage. - Francis Tyers · 17:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I dispute your 412 sources as repetitive from the same sites e.g. you have listed UN and EU more than 20 times each, COE some 80 times(!) etc. For me even 4% + Ethnologue + Australian case + Greece + dispute in general would be more than enough. Of course, claiming I only have 20 sources while you yourself did the search and came up with 21 books alone is silly... Niko Silver 21:48, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Your sources repeat too. I applied the same restrictions to yours as mine. - Francis Tyers · 23:54, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The World's Major Languages (Bernard Comrie ed.) ISBN 0195065115 is another one for my side. - Francis Tyers · 23:58, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Up to now

Note: Francis Tyers asserts that this section contains numerous unreliable sources and false assertions.

Aussie edu
ISO stuff
Freedomhouse.org report
COE
Historiography in the Former and New Yugoslavia
Lumsden
Die bulgarisch-jugoslawische Kontroverse um Makedonien 1967-1982 and review
Both terms from the Defence Academy of the UK
CNN
CNN another one
This from ECMA (see Ecma International)
This talks about that language in Greece, and is puzzled as to if it is distinct or same to the one up north. (from Europa diversa)
Multilingual European Subsets in ISO/IEC 10646-1 from CEN (see CEN)
and this
This, from this Berkeley guy
ODIN
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=108775
European Center for Modern Languages
dmoz.org
Rosetta project
This from Mercator
Another
Slavists’ convention...
UN
chief Wilkinson
...Who in p.307 also says: "The language of the Slavs of Macedonia was classified [by the Naval Intelligence Division (UK) Maps, in 1944] as Macedo-Slav and it was shown in Jugoslav and Greek Macedonia but not in Bulgaria."
Poulton
Lunt
Shea
Ethnologue
In 63 instances Britannica chooses to call the language in its literature links as South Slavic Macedonian
+112 for Macedonian (Slavonic) in AU.
+ 21-3=18 books

So I got some 220 sources total. Hey! I want more than one third from that lead! :-) Niko Silver 00:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Evidently you didn't get the memo about reliable sources. You claim "160", but the majority of those are unreliable. I could equally claim 80,000 with the same certitude. - Francis Tyers · 00:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Really Niko, listing stuff like this is doing your argument a great disservice. - Francis Tyers · 00:50, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Paleorama has great dinos and stuff in the main page. Maybe I should feed you to one of them to get done!^[1] Niko Silver 00:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

:)) - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Sources are up to 220. I want half the lead! Niko Silver 10:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You're living in a completely alternate reality. I think I've proven my point. :) - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Are you guys still at it? If you go on, then even those dinosaurs are going to refuse to eat you, because you're too damned old and tough. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think I'm going to give up, he's quoting "Paleorama" vs. many notable linguists, international organisations, academics, news organisations etc. He has a case for including "Macedonian (Slavonic)" providing the context I gave is used. My previous compromise proposal still stands, to have "Slavic Macedonian language" in the dab note. - Francis Tyers · 14:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I am really dissapointed you don't notice:

Lumsden, Stallaerts, Hammel, Wilkinson, Poulton, Lunt, Shea as academics
another 18 books
Britannica (63 times), ODIN, Ethnologue, Rosetta project, Mercator, Freedomhouse, Australian Press Council, and the Defence Academy and the Naval Intelligence Division of the UK as third-party sources
ISO, ECMA, CEN as standardizing organizations
UN, COE (EU), ECML (EU) as international organizations
CNN as a news organization
the Australian case
Various sources describing the dispute etc

Maybe you should take this elsewhere if you insist...Niko Silver 15:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Really guys, I know almost everybody's already said this, but don't you believe you have very good chances of finding yourselves assigned the prize for the lamest dispute ever in wikipedia?;-) I must admit I simply don't get it how people can find so interesting a discussion on minimum rewording of the lead; be careful, or I may be tempted to become really rouge and block the article for a year, obviously at the wrong version ;-).--Aldux 22:16, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah! That would be mine! :-) Niko Silver 22:18, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

^ Death threats! Death threats! Come on, ban him, immediately!

[edit] History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter - Issue III - November 2006

The History of Greece WikiProject Newsletter
Issue III - November 2006

Project news

This is our third Newsletter! Please comment on its form, the way it is delivered , its content etc. We need your ideas and contributions!
The New articles section is created! lease, add there any new article you create. Check the section and comment on the way it is structured and works. Your contributions and ideas are necessary!
The Peer review department has been created; it hopes to become an important tool for the amelioration of the articles within the scope of the project. Please, review and get reviewed!
Check our Announcements and Open tasks. The Announcements sub-section is just created. Feel free to add there new events valuable for the function of our project.
New shortcuts for the Outreach have been created. This will make easier your wikilinking!
New initiatives are needed in order to keep our project working!

Current proposals and discussions

Discussion continues about the possible imrovements of the follownig articles: Phanariotes and the Byzantine Empire.
A discussion about the creation of a sub-page/task-force that will focus on POV disputes has begun (here).
Greek Mythology is up for review in Wikipedia:Featured article review/Greek mythology and its FA status is endangered!
A discussion about the organization of some face to face meet-ups has begun in the Outreach department. If you think that this would be feasible and productive, please feel free to participate in this discussion.

To stop receiving this newsletter, or to receive it in a different format, please list yourself in the appropriate section Wikipedia:WikiProject History of Greece/Outreach#Delivery options.

[edit] By the way

What are these long lists, vre Nicos?! I got dizzy woth this intimate dialogue with Francis!!!--Yannismarou 13:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am a founding member of the Epsilon Team and Francis has confessed being in the payrol of the FYROM irredentists. We found out about each other after we had already become friends; no wonder why we are involved in obsessive debates. Fut.Perf. hates dinosaurs with obvious relationships to my secret leader and intervened. Dinosaurs are said to have secretly agreed with northern species for the name Slavomavedonia, but were overthrown before they could apply the solution. This is an attempt to hide the true facts from WP, which involves rouge admins. The Truth^TM will prevail! Niko Silver 14:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow! This is even more complex than the murder of Kennedy. I need time to think about it and digest the waves of information!--Yannismarou 20:47, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hey Sandy

Thanks for correcting me in coprolalia. Sorry for the apparent WP:OR, but I thought the intro needed to say this is a nuthouse case. Anyway, keep me in mind whenever you need to correct Greek stuff. :-) Niko Silver 19:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the help on Greek stuff (I really wasn't sure on the translations): I wouldn't really say it's a nuthouse case, though. I know some very accomplished and fine people who have coprolalia as a symptom of their Tourette syndrome. When I have time, I'll try to tune up the article to better explain. Regards, Sandy (Talk) 19:39, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Umm, possibly my English/Medical knowledge doesn't help to explain. I meant the intro needed some kind of hint that this is a non-normal mental situation/state. Niko Silver 20:01, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Help...

I deleted that category, but it seems there are some incoming links to it. Would you mind removing them for me? --HappyCamper 13:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry :-) No fuss at all. This place is too serious sometimes, and I got a healthy laugh reading through the comments! --HappyCamper 13:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that will be okay to leave them there. Thanks again for your help! --HappyCamper 13:40, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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