Talk:Puerto Rico

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Sections Expansion: Economy, Culture, Transportation Cleanup: Politics, Demographics Main articles Expansion: Culture of Puerto Rico, Geography of Puerto Rico, Economy of Puerto Rico, Education in Puerto Rico, Transportation in Puerto Rico Creation: Flora of Puerto Rico, Religion in Puerto Rico Other issues Resolve the controversy regarding the Demographics section Provide further references and notes

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Contents 1 Cleanup 2 Comment about Puerto Rican Indians 3 Statehood Fanatics 4 Note 5 Puerto Rican citizenship 6 Occupation 7 1954, is that there in the article although searching for 1954 did not give a hit

[edit] Cleanup

The Culture paragraph looks broken, in particular, the sentence "A popular unofficial symbol of Puerto Rico would be the : "jibaro" which struggled under the introduction by US of new traditions, cultures and festivities unlike their own in the decades of the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's. " - rstinejr, 8 Nov 2006.

Yes, it sucks. I will try to copyedit and clean it up. Joelito (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comment about Puerto Rican Indians

This version lacks the cute line about the Indians thinking that Columbus et. al. were gods, due to their skin color, found in http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico. :) Kyk 06:01, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I will read the article and see if I can incorporate it to the English version. Thanks for pointing that out. -- Maio 04:12, 7 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Contrary to my opinion on the use of the word "mulatto" (see below), I do think these tales about the innocence of natives are in bad taste. We only have the Spaniard colonists' stories about it. -- 171.64.42.82 03:13, 30 May 2004 (UTC)

Even in Jr. High there we are taught that the Indians believed the Spaniards were Gods. -- Antonio Half a Meter Martin

Can't say I know more than you do...but since I LIVE in Puerto Rico, I guess that I COULD say my opinion. Basically it is true that we only have the Spaniards' versions, but don't know if you've heard it..but there's a story about a Spaniard named "Diego Salzero" (or something like that... The story goes that he made the Indians carry him on their shoulders so as to not get his feet and legs wet. The Indians, trying to see if they were "Gods" or not, let him fall and drowned him. When they saw he died, many were mad and that also started the "revolutions" of the Indians in PR. Also, I think the Spaniards, being all Catholic and doing the "Incisicion" (killing people that weren't Catholic in bizarre and barbaric ways)shouldn't have made themselves look like Gods or tell the Indians they were gods, if that's the true story.

                                      -RickRodz

The 1511 story about Diego Salzero was a fantacy story, created by the white Spanirds. It was originally a true story based upon the fact of the drowning of the Spanird Salzero and later it took on the twisted Christian revival of Christ to make it look the Taino thought that the Christians could not be killed. My people the Jatibonicu Taino of Boriken (Puerto Rico), had learned in an arreito gathering of Caribbean island Caciques (Chiefs) that, the white people were not gods as they had learned this back in 1492. The War-Chief Caonabo of the Tainos of the island of Haiti had killed the 48 spanirds that had built the Spanish fort called El Fortin Natividad back in December of 1492. Los Tainos de Boriken Viven! -JuanPerez

[edit] Statehood Fanatics

It appears some one with the IP address of 67.100.190.218 has posted nonsense about Puerto Rico. He/she has encouraged his POV for a political optiopn that the island has constantly rejected for over 108 years. Is there anyway to block this user from posting nonsense again? --XLR8TION 00:48, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Well,that person shouldn't do that but you know statehood has lots by really low margins

Statehood is only granted to a territory if approved by 2/3 majority of the House of Representatives and a majority in the Senate. People viting in favor of statehood have to realize that in order for a statehood petition to move forward in Congress an extremely plural majority (over 80% of the island's population) would have to vote for this status. If not, the statehood for Puerto Rico is simply a pipe dream. There are many ignorant people in the USA who don't know anything about the island or even that the island is under US control. Do you think with the rise of xenophobia against Spanish-speaking illegal immigrants with an economy that is way poorer than Mississippi, the poorest state in the Union, that the USA would admit a Spanish-speaking nation into it's fold? I don't think so. --XLR8TION 21:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Note

[moved from article] The article should point out how the United States' investment was not only little, but barely worthy of note. An example would be the U.S. Caribbean involvement in the Sugar industry and was a major contributor on disabling one of Puerto Rico's top economic source.

The article should also point out how Puerto Ricans only receive 1/4 of their Social Security (ex. SSI takes 100k, but a Puerto Rican will only receive 25k for his/her lifetime), how the ports are over-taxed by the federal government and other economic drawbacks that the U.S.A. exercises against the island, which does severely damage the island's economy, for undisclosed reasons. Example of the cause and effect of U.S. involvement: the elderly population is becoming unproportionately larger to the young population. The cause is due to the younger population seeking jobs outside the island, because the employment in the island is almost hereditary and nonexistent.

The U.S. does not collect Federal Income tax (from paychecks) because over 50 percent of the population would be entitled for a full refund, and further display of cruel and improper taxation would trigger an U.N involvement. Also, an increase in the bureaucracy for the sole purpose of collecting federal employment tax would be a strain on the delicate U.S budget; thus collecting is unrealistic. Personally, it would ultimate prove Puerto Rico is part of the American Empire as a colony instead of a Free Associate State (legal term for we own you, but will not do anything for you), which would violate U.N resolution for de-colonization. These and other issues should be explored in this article, which I'll happily post when my anger subsides.

Alexzandro Rivera

Inserting everything you have said would make the article heavily biased plus many of your remarks are your own ideas and conclusions. Furthermore, the U.S. invested heavily in Puerto Rico's infrastructure during the first half of the 20th century and continues to inject large quantities of money into Puerto Rico via grants, aid, etc. Joelito (talk) 16:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Puerto Rican citizenship

The government of Puerto Rico issued an official document certifying the Puerto Rican citizenship. This is a historic day. It is the first time since the establishment of the constitution of 1952 (Estado Libre Asociado de Puerto Rico)that it is officially recognized and a citizenship document is issued. The Puerto Riccan government announced that starting in about 45 days anyone born in Puerto Rico (there is pending those born outiside PR but parents are born in PR)will be able to apply for the official document that certifies the Puerto Rican citizenship. reference:[1] and [2] --vertical 16:35, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• I was asked for my opinion in regard to the Puerto Rican citizenship and here it is. Yes, it is true that it is a historical event (I expect this fact to be incorporated into this article) and it reaffirms what I have always believed. I have always stated that, even though Puerto Rico is not an independent nation, Puerto Rico is a "nation" with its own culture, traditions and variation of the Spanish language. However, it is interesting to note that every Puerto Rican born between December 10, 1898, after the United States and Spain signed the Treaty of Paris and March 2, 1917 when the Jones Act was signed into law by United States President Woodrow Wilson, was a Puerto Rican citizen. If I an correct, this action should create a tug-of-war between those who are willing to accept a Puerto Rican citizenship as stipulated and those who only want an American citizenship. It will be interesting thing to see what the reaction will be now that (according to what I have read) Puerto Ricans will be able to have a dual citizenship. Tony the Marine 01:50, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Occupation

Puerto Rico was not invaded by the US, it was liberated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.126.143.59 (talk • contribs) .

As I have explained to you on your talk page, the U.S. invaded Puerto Rico. They had no intention of liberating Puerto Rico from Spanish rule. Furthermore, if PR was liberated how come it is neither sovereign nor a state? Joelito (talk) 20:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Because PR chose to become a commonwealth. If it wasn't liberated, how come it isn't on the UN list of non-selfgoverning territories?

It's not on the list because the nation who wields the most power in the UN is the USA. Puerto Rico was not given any political options from the date the US invaded the island (July 25, 1898) to the date it became a commonwealth (July 25, 1952). Whereas Cuba became independent (on paper) four years later in 1902, Puerto Rico was administered by the Department of the Interior. Liberation stems from the word "liberty." If liberty did exist after the 1898 invasion, then Puerto Rico would be independent now as statehood was not really a viable or attainable status in the eyes of an English speaking, Protestant majority country like the United States. --XLR8TION 21:35, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

So Virginia does not have liberty? PR was guarenteed all freedoms granted to US citizens, freedoms they didn't enjoy under spain, and no, the US doesn't just get their way in the UN, try reading the news for a change.

You are incorrect in both counts. Virginia is neither free nor sovereign, it is part of the USA and Puerto Ricans do not have all freedoms granted to US citizens (e.g. voting for the president). Joelito (talk) 23:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Virginia is most definitely free, by your definition no one is free, as there is always a soverign entity over their little piece of the planet. PR's lack of votes is by choice. PR has had many chances to get statehood, and will continue to have them, they have thus far FREELY decided to remain a territory due to tax benefits, etc. Should Bavaria be on the UN list of non-self governed territories? What about the city of Perth? Wake up and smell the common sense dude.

When a territory becomes a state there is no way it can secede from the Union. Therefore if Virginia is unhappy with its relationship with the USA, it can't do anything to change their status. They have to remain attached, unhappy, and not free to separate from the US. DO you call this freedom? Hawaii was only given two choices in 1959: Statehood or territory status. What about independence? No, it was not offered in the plebescite that Hawaiians voted in. Do you call this freedom when there is no freedom of choice? The US had many opportunities to rid itself of Puerto Rico, but when the FBI harasses pro-independence sympathizers, arrest and tortures many of them, and only scare many so that they won't join the independence party of they would be blacklisted from employment and housing, do you call this freedom or oppression. I say that the latter term would apply. If Bavaria or Perth wish to secede from their respected countries, than they should be placed on the UN list upon consulting with their federal governments. XLR8TION 01:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I call it a social contract that maintains your freedoms and documented by our constitution. You know what? Illinois was given two choices, Statehood or territory. What about independance? Not how the game works, but if we had pressed for it enough, I bet it would have happened. Freedom of choice doesn't mean freedom of all choices. You are not free to randomly murder children. Does this mean you aren't free? Of course not. Your argument utilizes logical fallacy and absurd notions. Puerto Rico is a vital part of the USA, and has been given enourmous latitude exceeding that given to many states. US citizens in Puerto Rico have the same rights and responsibilities as other US citizens. Want to move to Illinois? Come on over, you can work and everything, just like you were from New Mexico or Florida. Puerto Rico hasn't been oppressed, but liberated, joining the free world in 1898, and securing a place there with much more self determination than other members.

It is a fact that Puerto Rico enjoyed more political liberties and autonomy under Spain ( see Carta Autonómica 1897[3])in 1897 than during and after the US invasion (1898) which established a colonial regime which did not give self government nor voting representation in their congress to puerto ricans like Spain did in 1987. This fact is widely recognized by puerto rican historians. --vertical 16:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Puerto Rico never joined the Free World in 1898. How ignorant can you be? The island's inhabitants were treated as property and the island itself was a spoil of a war that was caused by yellow journalism. Until the island joins it proper place in the family of nations, then it is not free. --XLR8TION 18:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It should now be abundantly clear to all other editors that you are trying to push POV here, namely that Puerto Rico is and should be a soverign nation. A POV which neither reflects reality, nor the declarations of the United Nations.

You POV that Puerto Rico was liberated is absurd. Your redundancy is tiring. Dossiers that the US Government had on Puerto Rican nationalists and furthermore US propaganda at the time show "America's New Colonies" with an eagle stretching its' wings from the Philippines to Puerto Rico clearly show that the US government had no plans on letting go their new colonial playgrounds. If you call being conquered by another foreign power liberation than seriously you are both diluted and ignorant. --XLR8TION 02:34, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The majority of Puerto Ricans enjoy being part of the USA, they have voted as such. Liberation movements are non-existant. As per the Eagle, it's our natural symbol, and the wings were welcoming our new children into Freedom.

• Let me break down the comments of Mr. Unsigner.

1. To state "Liberation movements are non-existent" " without any prove is POV and false.

2. To state that "Eagle" is "our" natural symbol is also POV. Wikipedia is made up of thousands of users who do not consider the "Eagle" thier symbol.

3. "Natural" symbol? All birds are natural since they come from nature.

4. The "Eagle" is "not" the symbol of only the United States. Only the "Bald Eagle" species is. Mexico also has an Eagle as their symbol (Take a look at the Mexican flag).

5. The "Puerto Rican Spindalis" is the "national" bird of Puerto Rico and of the Puerto Rican people.

Stick to the facts and speak for youself and not for others. Do us a favor and sign your comments. What can we expect from someone who doesn't know the difference from the words "liberation" and "invasion"? Tony the Marine 14:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Don't be deliberately obtuse.

1. Liberation movements exist. There is proof that the independance party of Puerto Rico is in the minority. RTFA, it's there plain as day.

2. No it isn't don't be deliberately obtuse. Puerto Rico is part of the US of A. The Eagle is the national bird of the USA, and is thus the natural symbol to use to represent the USA.

3. See above, though I will repeat, don't be deliberately obtuse.

4. You seem to like causing trouble by picking nits with obvious statements. The cartoon in question features the Bald Eagle.

5. Puerto Rico, as part of the United States, has the Bald Eagle as their national bird. To say otherwise ignores reality. Their regional bird may be the Puerto Rico Spindalis, but hey, Virginia's regional bird is the cardinal. Just like Puerto Rico, however, Virginia's national bird is the Bald Eagle.

My fellow Wikipedians, Joel, vertical and XLR8TION, when I read this discussion, I couldn't help but to laugh at the notion that Puerto Rico was liberated as stated by the know-it-all User who is not registered and doesn't even care to sign his/her comments. How is it possible that in this day of age there are people who pretend to rewrite history to suite their own perspective? Does the unregistered no signer know that Wikipedia is based on proven facts and not on what is considered his/her own personal unhistorical point of view? Puerto Rico was not liberated, it was invaded and that is an undeniable fact. Does he/she call liberation changing from one master to another? Puerto Rico was granted many autonomist powers and possibly on its way to independence when it was invaded. Freedom? Sure, but a restricted Freedom. Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if they wanted to become a United States territory? Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if they wanted U. S. citizenship? Did the United States hold a consensus among the Puerto Rican people and ask them if it was alright for the United States Armed Forces to bombard the populated island of Vieques? Does the United States permit Puerto Rico to purchase prime material at a cheaper price from other countries? So on and so fourth. Our youth is sent to fight and die in the military battles of the United States, but they are not allowed to vote for the President responsible for sending them there in the first place. Is that Freedom of choice?

I don't know, but I believe that this unregistered user is trying to take everyone here for a ride. Either that or he/she is trying to start a senseless debate. If he/she continues to add the term "liberation" and delete the proper term which is invasion, I suggest that he/she be banded for continuously posting a POV which on a repetition basis and as such maybe considered vandalism.

Tony the Marine 03:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Check the records before making accusations. I haven't changed the article since taking this to talk. I am following policy and being courteous. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I am a vandal.

Additionally, no youth from Puerto Rico is being "sent to fight and die in the military battles of the United States". Some US citizens from the US territory of Puerto Rico have volunteered for their country to fight and die for their country. But no one is out rounding them up and shipping them over.

I agree with you Tony., Apparently the poster is a ranting imbecile. I suggest that he be banned immediately because apparently it seems that he is a GOP-card carrying member of the Minutemen who hold animosity towards Puerto Ricans. --XLR8TION 14:33, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

I love Puerto Rico, and if anyone here needs to be banned it is you for making a personal attack.

Blah, blah, blah. To others on this topic, lets move on to more creative things. The notion of keeping the dolts entertained has become tiresome and boring. --XLR8TION 20:48, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Making personal attacks doesn't make you seem any smarter, or your point seem any more valid. I've brought up some counter points, if you'd like to debate this intelligently and civily, I am interested in your responses.

Ignore the troll. If he/she was actually interested in intelligent discussion he/she would present intelligent arguments and sign the comments. Smylere Snape 04:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've made quite a number of intelligent arguments, and responded to all that have been posted here, no one has responded to mine. As per signing the comments, I'm new here and just learned how. 130.126.143.59 21:51, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

For the sake of discussion, does making a statement such as the one which started all of this fall under opinion, and as such, subject to WP:NPOV?Demf 13:44, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

13:36, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No more than the word "invaded". 130.126.143.59 20:30, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

From the Wikitonary: Invasion Noun 1. A military action consisting of armed forces of one geopolitical entity entering territory controlled by another such entity, generally with the objective of conquering territory or altering the established government. By all historical accounts, the landing of US troops on Guanica was done with the objective of altering the established government, from a Spanish government to a military US government. Hence, the term "invasion" is accurate and does not represent an opinion. Smylere Snape 23:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 1954, is that there in the article although searching for 1954 did not give a hit

When were they freed??

Associated Press Newswires It's Been 50 Years Since Worst Attack On Congress

By JIM ABRAMS February 24, 2004 Copyright ©2004 Associated Press Newswires. All rights reserved.

WASHINGTON (AP) - A penny-sized bullet hole marks the desk used by Republicans when they speak on the floor of the House, a memento of the worst terrorist attack against Congress.

On March 1, 1954, four Puerto Rican nationalists opened fire from the visitors' gallery above the chamber. They sprayed some 30 shots around the hall and wounded five lawmakers, one seriously.

Amazingly, no one was killed even though some 240 members were on the floor at the time of the shooting, which happened 50 years ago Monday. Bullets penetrating the Republican desk barely missed Majority Leader Charles Halleck, R-Ind., who was hit by flying splinters.

It was a stunning act of violence in a body that, despite its openness to the public, had been relatively violence-free in its first century and a half.

There had been isolated incidents of lawmakers assaulting each other. President Andrew Jackson narrowly escaped an assassin outside the Capitol Rotunda in 1835. In 1915, a Harvard professor protesting U.S. policy toward Germany destroyed two Senate rooms with a bomb. A Vietnam War protester set off a bomb in a Senate restroom in 1971.

The first metal detectors at the Capitol did not appear until 1976. It was not until 1998, when a man with a history of mental illness shot and killed two Capitol Police officers, that the need to deal with security threats took on a real sense of urgency.

http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2004/vol8n10/ItsBeen50.shtml 194.215.75.17 10:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, I found it

President Carter freed the Puerto Ricans in 1979 after they had served 25 years in prison. Although the :Carter White House denied any connection, their release coincided with Fidel Castro's release of several :Americans being held in Cuba on espionage charges.

Or is it all an urban legend?? 194.215.75.17 10:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)