Talk:Trundholm sun chariot

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drawing (PD or fairuse?) dab (ᛏ) 09:24, 10 August 2005 (UTC) the drawing shows the spirally patterns familiar from neolithic petroglyphs, identified as solar symbols, see [1]. dab (ᛏ) 13:07, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

how is the dating justified? It went down from 1400 to the 1200s? While I find a spoke-wheeled chariot in 1400 BC Scandinavia most amazing, I suppose there is nothing too surprising about 1000 BC sopoked wheels. So my surprise really rather hinges of the dating of this thing. dab (ᛏ) 11:48, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Here is a translation from Nationalencyklopedin:

Sacrificial find from the elder Bronze Age consisting of a 57 cm long model of a wagon harnessed with a horse, discovered in 1902 in the bog of Trundholm on NW Zealand, now in the National Museum in Copenhagen. T, which has been dated to 1300-1500 BC is made of cast bronze and consists of a circular disc measuring 25 cm across, on which parts of the original golden layer are preserved. The disc is mounted on a wagon harnessed with a horse, having six wheels, one of the oldest plastic representations from the Danish bronze age. It is believed that there was a wagon in natural size as well, which was used in solar worship.

I guess the dating is based on C12 dating, since it so vague.--Wiglaf 12:03, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

C14 you mean? You cannot date metal with that. The thing was just ploughed up in a field, so there is no burial to associate it with. I think it is just dated based on the style of workmanship, to the 'middle Nordic Bronze Age'. I wonder if it is significant that there is only one horse, as compared to two, in the King's Burial case. Is there no evidence of horse tacks, allowing to date the beginning of two-horse-teams? I have thought about Arvak and Alsvid, in this context. It makes precious little sense to have one horse who is an "early riser", if you have to wait for the other one to wake up before you can leave. I think that either were they two horses used for each direction of the trip (i.e. Arvak during the day, and Alsvid for the trip back during the night), or they were two epitheta for the single horse we can see here. Either way, the names would have been distributed on the team of two horses from 1000 BC or so when two-horse-teams became common (of course I am not implying that the actual Old Norse names are that old, they would have been different names, in pre-proto-Germanic). dab (ᛏ) 12:23, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Oops, yes C14. I assumed the wheels were made of wood. Concerning Alsvid and Arvak, the number of horses may have changed during the 2500 years that passed between the Trundholm wagon and the Edda. The relationship between the imagery of the Nordic Bronze Age and the Edda is a never-ending discussion in Scandinavia.--Wiglaf 12:28, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

of course, there are 2500 years between the Trundholm chariot and the Edda, after all. I was just speculating about when they went from one to two horses. Since the "King's Grave" already shows a team of two, you could imagine that this happened rather early. In any case, as long as there are no remains of any actual chariots, this is pure speculation. dab (ᛏ) 08:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I wish we had more info. I also wish we had one of those petroglyph experts here. User:OlofE should have a lot to add. I'll e-mail him and see if he's interested.--Wiglaf 08:38, 14 August 2005 (UTC)