Talk:Ume

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Aren't ume plums, and not apricots? Also, what is the difference in making ume-juice and ume-shu?

Yes, but apricots are plums too, so are peaches, if we are to stick to scientific classification. Ume-shu is alcoholic. — Zeimusu | Talk 00:42, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

Ume is often called Japanese plum in English but it is actually of Chinese origin and a kind of apricot. On the other hand sumomo (Prunus salicina Lindl.) is also called Japanese plum and it is plum. --163.139.215.193 17:16, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Plum" is a not a species specific word, it could apply to any of the Prunus genus except the laurals. Ume are not apricots (P. armeniaca), nor are they true plums (P. domestica). Certainly they are closly related to both. Ume may be more closely related to P. armenica (this could be noted if true), but to call them apricots is wrong and misleading. Sumomo are also Chinese according to ja.wikipedia) Zeimusu | (Talk page) 05:54, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 Cleanup 2 This article vs Plum 3 Yabai and hibai 4 POV 5 Osmanthus/chrysanthemum

[edit] Cleanup

This page needs to be split, the recipe needs to be moved to wiki cookbook, and the introduction needs to be expanded to mention range, season, ecolology and human uses: decorative, pharmecutical, and for eating. see also umeboshi, which also needs to be taken to the cook book — Zeimusu | Talk 00:42, 2005 Feb 3 (UTC)

Ive created a sumomo article, it needs work.

[edit] This article vs Plum

Can someone clarify the link/difference between this article and Plum, both here and there? This article presently says that the Ume is a form of "asian plum". But the plum article does not meantion the word "mei/ume" at all.

I've posted this here because obviously there are people who know a lot about this species of the plum.

Also, the "plum" article keeps talking about the Republic of China's national flower being the "plum blossom". However, would it not be more accurately the "mei" blossom? Should that information be excised and perhaps moved to this article instead? Or should it be clarified over at plum? --Sumple (Talk) 12:02, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for writing. This article covers a species of Prunus native to East Asia: Prunus mume (known as ume in Japanese, maesil in Korean, and mei in Chinese).

Although it's referred to as a "plum," the ume is apparently more closely related to the apricot (another Prunus species) than to the European plums.

The blossom in Taiwan is mei/Prunus mume so that change should be made in the plum article. There are other plums grown in China and other East Asian countries, including European plums and li/sumomo. If you have more questions, just ask. Badagnani 16:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yabai and hibai

If the names "yabai" and "hibai" translate as "ume" then why isn't it "ya-ume" or "hi-ume"? What does "bai" mean? This should be explained and hiragana/kanji given. Badagnani 17:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "bai" is another reading of 梅.

• yabai 野梅 やばい
• hibai 緋梅 ひばい

"Bai" is mainly used in compound words (jukugo), not usually by itself. So you can say "Bai means ume" but I don't think you can say "Ume is also called bai". Does that make sense? --163.139.215.193 15:23, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article is written in a very Japanese-POV way. The article seems to take Ume as a Japanese flower (for example, all the names are given only in Japanese. "Cultural significance refers only to its significance in Japan"), while actually it originates in China and is the national emblem for the Republic of China. I suggest the article be re-written so that its significance in both the Chinese and Japanese culture can be expressed. Aran|heru|nar 05:49, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you read the article again? Every section discusses something about this fruit vis-a-vis China and/or Taiwan. We can't help that the best known name in English, like many other foods, is the Japanese name, but the Chinese origin of this fruit, as well as Chinese uses of it, are certainly already acknowledged in the article. If you can be specific about the POV you see in each paragraph, we'll take it from there, but your criticism is vague as it stands now. Badagnani 05:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

E.g. this paragraph:

"Ume juice is extracted by preserving the fruits in sugar. It tastes sweet and acidic, and is a refreshing drink, often enjoyed in the summer. In Korea, maesil juice, which is marketed as a healthful tonic, is enjoying increasing popularity. Umeshu (梅酒, sometimes translated as "plum wine") is a Japanese alcoholic drink made by steeping green ume in shochu (燒酎, clear liquor). It is sweet and smooth. The taste and aroma of ume-shu can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol. A similar liquor in Korea, called maesilju, is marketed under various brand names including mae hwa su, and mae chui soon.

Umeboshi 梅干 are pickled ume. Flavoured with salt and purple shiso (perilla) leaves, they are red in color and quite salty and sour, and therefore eaten sparingly. Umeboshi are generally eaten with rice as part of a bento."

Ume juice is rarely seen in China and is popular in Japan, and yet it makes only one small reference to the country it actually refers to. "Often enjoyed in the summer" is not only POV for a country, but is POV as a whole, and so is "can appeal to even those people who normally dislike alcohol". Thanks.

I'm sorry, I'm not following you. I was just in a local Chinese supermarket (in Cleveland, Ohio, USA) and there were several brands of China-produced "mei" (梅) juice (both smoked and unsmoked) in plastic bottles and canned. The summer reference you mention can probably be fixed with one or two added words like "in Japan." I still don't see what the problem is, and you're free to add to the article to make it more descriptive of Chinese and Taiwanese uses of the fruit. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Another example is that it states its uses and significance in Japan first and foremost, without even mentioning which country it refers to, and then add "Also in China" at the end of the sentence, e.g. "The tree was also well loved and celebrated in China", "it is also the national flower of the Republic of China)".Aran|heru|nar 07:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This shouldn't be too hard to fix. Do you agree that the fruit is more popular in Japan (and Korea) than it is in China? If not, then it should be balanced somehow. Badagnani 07:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm working on it. Is there "mei" liquor in China or Taiwan? Badagnani 07:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Mei/Ume is more popular in Japan than in China. Mei is one of the traditional four flowers of China, and its significance is immense (i.e. it is mentioned many times in Shijing). Ume is probably more well-known in English as the US tends to import a lot of Japanese merchandise after WWII. By the way, the Mei blossom symbolizes nobleness and being "men of honour" (君子) in Chinese culture [1]. Some also deemed it lucky [2], and it has, probably in the modern era, been used to symbolize revolution and struggle [3].

All of this is interesting and important information. You should add it into the article. Probably whoever wrote most of the article was a Japanophile, and knew most about Japan but not much about China, like you do. So we all can strengthen articles from the knowledge we have. Badagnani 08:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have added some information concerning it being a symbol for nobleness, though I don't yet have an English source that can be put there. Thanks for the work. Aran|heru|nar 07:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've added a little more information. I've tried to make the opening more balanced by listing the Jap, Chn, and Kor names in parallel. I've put the Japanese name first because that seems the most common name by which the fruit is known in English. I've also made some other edits to make sentences sound more universal in tone. --Sumple (Talk) 10:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nice work, guys. There's a minor problem - half the "梅" in the article links to Wiktionary (while half doesn't). Don't you think one link is enough? Or should we link every Chinese word to a Wiktionary? It seems strange we're just linking some of them (randomly).

Another thing - aren't Umeboshi and Huamei sometimes called "prune" in English? Should we include the word along with a link? Aran|heru|nar 05:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A few things: 1) I think the additional "mei" wikilinks were for words containing "mei" like "wumei," or "maesil," or whatever. You're right, a wikilink for "mei" should probably appear just once in the first instance, but it looks funny in a multi-character word like "wumei" to just wikilink one of the characters. 2) I never heard umeboshi or huamei called "prune" in English. Where did you see that translation? 3) a question: do Chinese make any kind of "mei" wine or liquor or is it just Japanese and Koreans that do this? One does see something called "plum wine" in North American Chinese restaurants, but I think it's usually a Japanese-produced thing, not so much for Chinese tastes. Badagnani 06:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

On the plum liquor question: I've seen/read about plum wine or plum liquor mentioned in books and tv shows set in ancient China. I don't know how widespread that was, though. In the Romance of the Three Kingdoms there's a famous scene between Cao Cao and Liu Bei which involved plums and wine - but separately - the plum, I think, was eaten while drinking wine. In any case, I've never seen made-in-China plum wine here in Australia - usually they are Korean-made.

On the prune question - I thought prunes are preserved plums - the other kind. They certainly look different. --Sumple (Talk) 09:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Osmanthus/chrysanthemum

The article says that Chinese mei juice is commonly flavored with guihua (Sweet Osmanthus) flowers. But photos on the Internet show juhua (chrysanthemum) flowers floating in cups of what appears to be boiled wumei. Can chrysanthemum thus be added to the article in this context? Also, isn't wumei boiled (sometimes along with red hibiscus flowers) to create a refreshing drink? This should be clarified as it's not only for medicinal purposes, and the "sour plum juice" then wouldn't really be a juice, but a kind of herbal tea, as it's made from boiling dried plums. Thanks in advance for your expertise with these questions. Badagnani 08:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I guess so. Sour plum juice is probably a tea rather than a juice. I've never tried (seen) mei/plum juice with chrysanthemum. Osmanthus flavoured plum juice/soup/tea is darker than the one in the picture - it's more of a Coke colour. Could be different regional varieties. --Sumple (Talk) 09:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I just tried some of that dark-colored osmanthus/mei juice and wanted that photo for the article but none of the ones I found were as good or clear as the light-colored juice photo I ended up adding. I described the color of the dark one as "purplish-black" or something like that. Badagnani 09:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Here's what appears to be a photo of wumei tea with floating juhua flowers. Is that traditional? http://info.agri.hc360.com/zt/050622/index.shtml Badagnani 09:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The weird thing is if you click on the photo of the wumei tea with juhua, you get a closeup photo of what looks like yangmei, not wumei! http://info.agri.hc360.com/2005/06/23091413194.shtml Badagnani 09:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Haha. I wonder what happened there? Pretty sure yangmei is something else entirely.... --Sumple (Talk) 10:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)