Talk:Wernher von Braun

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[edit] Posthumous Hpnors

The Von Braun Civic Center was built in 1975, and Braun died in 1977, how is the honors posthumous?

[edit] Early Life

I doubt that Wernher von Braun got a Bachelor of Science degree. At that time, there were no Bachelor degrees in Germany, just Masters and PhDs. So either he got a Master's or no degree. -- An Austrian

Arthur Rudolph stated he received a eiwergreifen (the term has phonetic beside it- I am sure the spelling is suspect) in Mechanical Engineering, and that this was equivalent to a BS. A 1962 security investiation form shows BS - ME from College of Berlin in 1930. I'm sure this would have been the Technical College of Berlin as it was known then. --Gadget850 15:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

BTW, if someone figures this out, I am curious to know. --Gadget850 14:54, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

According to the German Wikipedia, von Braun completed an Abitur at the Hermann-Lietz-Schule in Spiekeroog in 1930, the basic qualification that enables one to enter a university--roughly the equivalent of British A-levels , American high school diploma or French baccalauréat. This French use--or its growing internationalization--may have contributed to a belief by some that he had a "bachelor's" (In the 1930's in Germany apparently only Law schools still used a "bachelor's degree.")

Ziusudra 20:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Urban legend?

I tried to add this true story about Von Braun, but it seems it doesn't get immediate approval:

«Because of the destructions caused by his V2's, Von Braun has been considered a long time as a war criminal in Britain. One day, as Von Braun was coming back from a trip in Europe in a US plane, he felt the plane go down. He was then informed by the crew that the plane was about to land in Britain for refueling. He explained his status to the pilot, who aborted the landing. Soon after this incident, US diplomats worked to remove Von Braun's war criminal status in Europe.»

Who objects to this addition ? --Anonymous

I do not, but apparently Guanaco does. I might have edited it a bit for NPOV and perhaps put it in a less conspicuous place than a ==War criminal== heading, particularly because he's regarded much more as a hero of the space program in Huntsville, Alabama and the United States.

Thanks. I have added the story as part of his NASA career, and added the hero status for fairness. --Anonymous

«As a figure of the space exploration program, Von Braun got to travel across the world. One day, as he was coming back from a trip in Europe in a US plane, he felt the plane go down. He was then informed by the crew that the plane was about to land in Britain for refueling. Because of the destructions caused by his V2's, Von Braun was still considered a war criminal in Britain at the time. He explained his status to the pilot, who aborted the landing. Soon after this incident, US diplomats worked to remove Von Braun's war criminal status in Europe. He's regarded as a hero of the space program in Huntsville, Alabama and the United States.»

I've taken it out again until some credible sources and references are provided, this has the feel of an urban legend.--GeneralPatton 13:50, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC) In fact in 1945 the British offered him full support for continuation of his work, but he turned them down and instead decided to work for the USA, whom he felt had the greatest resources to pull off a space program. He and his associates even spent some time in Britain during 1945, especially Dornberger!--GeneralPatton 13:56, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Countries can have a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde approach to dealing with smart people who helped the enemy. The United States brought rocket scientist Arthur Rudolph to the country from Germany as part of Project Paperclip, had him design the Saturn V, then essentially kicked him out of the country (then Canada kicked him out) because of his participation at Peenemünde. -- ke4roh 16:12, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Arthur Rudolph's problems primarily came from the allegations that he personally mistreated and sadistically abused slave laborers, that he was a staunch anti-semite even in the US and stayed an unrepentant neo-nazi until the end. --GeneralPatton 01:21, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Let's see: when was he granted immunity, and when did he travel to Europe before that ? If he did, did he ever land in Britain ? --Anonymous

a. Sign what you write, b. I still see no credible sources and references. --GeneralPatton 01:40, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps the FBI dossier can substantiate the claim. Since it's big, I recommend we split it up and loook at it in sections. -- ke4roh 16:38, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Reviewers of sections:
- § 4 - mostly about nutty fan mail, no mention of travel - ke4roh
- § 5 - more kooks, and on p. 48 (continued in §6) an interesting story "Translation and Abstracts of The Secret of Huntsville: The True Career of the Rocket Baron Wehrner von Braun by Julius Mader, reprented in Forum, East Berlin Newspaper for Students and the Young Intelligencia, Nos 36/49, Vol. 16, 1962. Copyright by Kongress Publishing Co, 1962." Aside from its wild propaganda about Sheik von Braun and his exploits of the poor Huntsvillians, it starts off with a decent description of Huntsville in 1962. -- ke4roh
- § 6 - Mader purportedly quotes von Braun: "I believe my school education was useless. I attended the French Gymnasium in Berlin where only French was spoken .... My weakness was in the field of mathematics. But I flunked not only in mathematics, but also in physics." He says the quote is from a West Berlin Newspaper: Spandauer, September 17, 1959. For some perspective, Mader writes §6 p. 45 "The von Brauns, representitives of the imperialistic ruling class, were unable to change the outcome of the first and second world war, they neither succeeded with treachery and intrigue nor war rockets. They were unable to stop the lawful evolution of mankind towards socialism and are now completely unable to stop this trend even by American nuclear weapons. They are marching along the losers' road of history, chased by the the scorn of peoples whom they injured or decimated." Most of § 6 is Mader's writing. - ke4roh
- § 7 - p. 28: Golos Rodiny (Voice of the Homeland) No. 12 (411) February 1960 reports on Von Braun's testimony before a congressional committee (translated from English to Russian and back): WvB said he "'would not be surprised' if this year the Russians would place a man in orbit around the earth. ... von Braun 'doubts very much' that the United States could overtake [the Soviet Union] by 1964, even taking into consideration new funds allotted for a big space rocket 'Saturn'." - ke4roh

The whole article is biaised. No real mention of war criminal allegations. Type "Von Braun war criminal" in Google and see by yourself. I don't care whether the allegations are true or not, the debate is significant enough to be mentionned directly in this article. Also, where is the quote about French slaves coming from ? --Anonymous

Why don't you identify yourself, it seems to me that you are a persistent troll. FBI file does not mention any of your allegations. Even the communist controlled East German press didn’t accuse him of the allegations you write. Please state your agenda, the statement "don't care whether the allegations are true or not" shows you do have one.--GeneralPatton 12:37, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I Googled "Wernher von Braun" "war criminal" and got 333 results, many discussing Von Braun in conjunction with others who faced more serious charges like Arthur Rudolph. The most notable result I found was ISBN 0275962172, Wernher von Braun: The Man Who Sold the Moon by Dennis Piszkiewicz. I have not read the book, though I might. Amazon reviewers had mixed takes on it, many charging the author with bias or vendetta. Other pages alluded to his potential to be a war criminal but did not give specifics. -- ke4roh 14:55, Jul 6, 2004 (UTC)

Well, Google "Bill Clinton" "war criminal" and you'll get 12,200 hits. But allegations are just that, allegations, especially since von Braun was constantly heavily scrutinized due to his prominence both before and after the war, but no serious evidence was ever produced, if there was anything serious, the East German STASI or the media would have dug it up, but they didn't. We might as well include the infamous “Clinton hit list” in wiki then if we’re going to cover dubious allegations. --GeneralPatton 02:08, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In fact, "Ronald Reagan" "war criminal" gives me 7,120 hits, "Winston Churchill" "war criminal" 2,310 hits, "Harry Truman" "war criminal" 1,510 hits, "Kennedy" "war criminal" 10,900 hits, "Kissinger" "war criminal" 11,300 hits, "Nixon" "war criminal" 8,840 hits, "Ariel Sharon" "war criminal" 16,400 hits, "Wesley Clark" "war criminal" 5,340 hits, "Colin Powell" "war criminal" 9,000 hits, "Rumsfeld" "war criminal" 18,300 hits, "John Kerry" "war criminal" 9,720 hits, and "Bush" "war criminal" gives me the whooping 70,200 hits, even the "pope" "war criminal" gives 8,410 hits on Google.--GeneralPatton 02:22, 9 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Thank god Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not american propaganda. He is a regarded as a war criminal, sorry to bring the bad news, General Patton. --Anonymous

Would you please identify yourself? And then give some attribution. The Germans are supersensitive about WW2 yet they still regard him as a great hero.--GeneralPatton 03:25, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Considering your level of language (ref. "troll"), I don't think any fair amount of discussion will help you understand the NPOV concept, and have it applied to this case. I suggest the article to be frozen until unbiaised Wikipedia administrators decide which way to go. --Anonymous

I am German and I am pretty sure that there are very few Germans that regard Wernher von Braun as a hero. I also think that this article is biased, it might be helpful to include some of the information from the German Wikipedia. E.g. in my opinion it should be mentioned that there were forced laborers at Peenemuende and that Wernher von Braun actually requested more of them so he must have been aware of that fact. It might be true that he had to join NSDAP and SS in order to keep working however he knew he was working on a weapon (that’s what the nazi regime paid him for) and he could have decided not to develop it in the first place. However, he collaborated as long as he could carry on with his research. I believe that he is the perfect example of a scientist that does not care about moral obligations at all but that is only interested in his work.R.C.B. 09:22, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Just as a reminder, here is two of the policies we have to follow as part of Wikipedia:

First, because there are a huge variety of participants of all ideologies and nationalities Wikipedia is committed to making its articles as unbiased as possible. There has been criticism that the systemic bias of individual participants can color the neutrality of an article. However, the aim is not to write articles from a single objective point of view — this is a common misunderstanding of the policy — but rather, to fairly present all views on an issue, attributed to their adherents in a neutral way. Of course, establishing a consensus on what views should be thus attributed can often require much (sometimes heated) discussion and debate.
Avoid profanity (words or images that could be considered offensive by typical Wikipedia readers), but not at the expense of accuracy. We strive to create a serious encyclopedia with brilliant prose.

Sbossineau

Sbossineau, well, i see you are new here, this being your first and only post thus far, so welcome.--GeneralPatton 22:05, 10 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The SS was declared a criminal organisation, so as a member surely von Braun is a crinimal? I'm not in full possession of the facts, but the BBC Two television programme "Space Race" seemed convinced von Braun was fully aware of the slave labour used.

This surely should be mentioned in the full article.

ChrisL

Declared criminal by whom? Does that mean every SS member (and there were hundreds of thousands, many of them non-German) was a war criminal?

So is the war criminal accusation related to (a) what VB did during the war (develop indiscriminate war weapons) (b) the use of slave labour

(a) Were the scientists on the Manhattan Project war criminals, since they knowingly developed a weapon whose primary function is to destroy cities and kill inhabitants regardless of status? The V1 and V2 weapons were clearly indiscriminate weapons of this type, if far less powerful.

(b) If the latter - is use of slave labour a war crime? In most wars in history, prisoners of war have been used to perform manual labour for their captors. This happened on both sides in WW2. It is allowed by the Geneva convention - as long as the prisoners are treated humanely. We like to think that German POWs were treated rather better in WW2 than Allied ones - but I doubt if this applies to Germans unlucky enough to be captured by the Soviets. VB used political prisoners and others including Jews to build his rockets.

The nub of the matter is, I think, the inhumane treatment of these workers involved in the construction of the rockets. How much was VB responsible for this? Knowing what he did should he have refused to work unless conditions were improved? Perhaps. But is his failure to do so enough to make him a war criminal?

There is always the "I was only obeying orders" defence. Less convincing the more senior the defendant is. VB was clearly important to the Nazis and had influence - not unlimited of course, as shown by his arrest. Hitler was quite willing to kill even his most trusted followers if they turned against him. Rommell, for example.

(personal viewpoint) - VB was probably one of that type of scientist whose interest in his work overrides other considerations. Not exactly uncommon. But a war criminal? Probably not.

Exile 15:42, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Compromise re: Oppenheimer

I am satisfied with the latest edits from General Patton. Thanks ! 66.25.49.10

Great then, well, if only the people at Robert Oppenheimer would feel the same as i do. Personally I do agree that wiki is not Hero worship, but we really need to sort out the facts and present it with the least POV possible. I always seek a compromise, always.--GeneralPatton 01:29, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

If you want to talk about the ethical ambiguity and opinons towards von Braun, do it IN THE ARTICLE. The first paragraph is supposed to just be a BRIEF summary. Oppenheimer does not belong in von Braun's brief summary -- he has nothing to do with him in the slightest. --Fastfission 17:46, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I agree with you, but does user 66.25.49.10 who's been insisting on it agree? --GeneralPatton 21:33, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Fastfission 100%. The jab at Oppenheimer is out of place and not at all NPOV. --mav 21:21, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Plagiarism?

This article has a few paragraphs word-for-word which are also found at http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/academy/history/VonBraun/Germany.html. I don't know Wikipedias stance on plagiarism (or which way this incident went). However there has definately been some copying.

Because the text at liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov is a work of the United States government, it is in the public domain worldwide. Copying is thus permitted. -- ke4roh 03:28, Jul 10, 2004 (UTC)

I was the one that originally copied the text from MSFC. I did it because it was a good public domain source, but it does have some serious POV problems (i.e. it tends to play down the war crime charges) which I'm glad to see that people are fixing. Roadrunner 18:12, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] New Biography

I have this eveving spoken with an author whom has written a new work on von Braun which will, I believe, treat von Braun's life evenhandedly, rather than being a glowing report or a damning indictment. The author has spoken with several first-hand resources, and has read deeply and widely on von Braun, and resides in the Huntsville, AL community. Upon it's publication in early 2005, I will cite it as a reference and draw upon it as an authoritative voice in von Braun's life. K. L. Bardon 00:02, Dec 16, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Additional information

This was added by user:Kevin L. Bardon on December 19. It needs a copyedit at the very least and seems to be not NPOV.Evil Monkey → Talk 05:10, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)

Additional information

An OMGUS (Office of the Military Governor - United States ) document dated April 23, 1947 states that von Braun joined the SS horseback riding school in fall 1933, that he joined the Nazi party May 1, 1937 and that he held four ranks in the SS from may 1940 to June 28, 1943 when he was awarded the highest rank of Sturmbannfuerer (SS Major). Von Braun's comments on those memberships was "I was officially demanded to join the National Socialist Party. At this time (l937) I was already technical director of the Army Rocket Center at Peenemuende... My refusal to join the party would have meant that I would have to abandon the work of my life. Therefore, I decided to join. My membership in the party did not involve any political activities...in spring l940, one SS-Standartenfuerer (SS Colonel) Mueller... looked me up in my office at Peenemuende and told me, that Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler had sent him with the order to urge me to join the SS. I called immediately on my military superior... Major-General Dr. Dornbeger. He informed me that...if I wanted to continue our mutual work, I had no alternative but to join." (The reader must bear in mind von Braun's comments were made after he had been brought to the United States.)

There exists no documentation or record, public or private, that von Braun directly repudiated and/or disavowed Nazism or expressed any regret for his participation. The closest he ever came to such was in l965, when a group that named itself the Amicale des Camps de Dora Ellrich (Friends of Deportees of the Dora-Ellrich Camps) accused von Braun of being partly responsible for the suffering of inmates of the concentration camp where the V-2 was built. The French magazine Paris Match asked von Braun to answer his accusers. Von Braun replied on April 26, l966: "As much as I understand their bitterness, I am appalled by their false accusations aimed at me." He went on to explain that the U.S. government had cleared him, how a war crimes tribunal had investigated the atrocities at Dora, that neither investigation had found anything that adversely reflected on him. About the crimes at Dora, he wrote: "I felt ashamed that things like this were possible in Germany, even under a war situation where national survival was at stake".

There are three different versions of von Braun's arrest. André Sellier, a survivor of Mittelbau-Dora Concentration Camp and a French historian, offers as good an explanation as any. It is summarized as follows: Himmler called WvB, whom was already a SS officer, to come to his Hochwald HQ in east Prussia sometime February 1944. Himmler recommended WvB work more closely with Krammer to solve the problems of the V-2. WvB claimed to have replied that the problems were merely technical and he was confident that Dornberger would help him. WvB had apparently been under surveillance since October by the SD, which was creating a report on he and his colleagues Riedel and Grotrupp. They were said to have expressed regret at an engineer's house one evening they were not working on a spaceship, and that they had the feeling that the war was not going well. A young and very attractive female dentist denounced them for their comments. WvB was arrested and on February 22 taken to Stettin, where he was imprisoned for two weeks, not knowing the charges leveled against him. Only through the Abwehr in Berlin that Dornberger was able to obtain WvB's conditional release. Speer also apparently intervened on their behalf as well.

[edit] A hero in the US?

Is it certain that von Braun is really regarded as a hero in the US? I was born in the US in 1963, and I think he was a Nazi pig. No contributions to the US space program could possibly make up for the deaths of the slave laborers producing his V2 rockets during WW2. Is the unqualified statement in the intro paragraph really warranted?--165.189.91.148 21:54, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"...and I think he was...". Well, what you personally might think of the subject in question (applying to any Wikipedia article) is perhaps not the information one should base an encyclopedia on. As for von Braun's status in the US, the contemporary feelings for him in the general population was definitely positive--in the media of the time he was presented as the archetypal "rocket scientist", responsible for keeping the US space program abreast of the Soviet counterpart. The negatively laden information about his role in Nazi Germany's V2 rocket project was played down by the US Govt during the 1950s and 60s, and didn't seriously surface in the media until the early 70s. --Wernher 12:00, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

- Yes, information about the Nazi crimes at Dora didn't come out until much later, but the article doesn't say "he was regarded as a hero" , it says he is regarded as a hero. Is that accurate? Quale 20:41, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Any accusations of Warcrimes are typical Jewish lies. (--User:24.141.214.87/talk)

[edit] Antarctica

There is a gap in the article. It leaves out the time of the moon landing and his time in Antarctica. Why is that? Is there no info? It seems a very important point in his biography. Ben (talk) 11:49, Apr 8, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion in dates

The surrender paragraph follows after the arrest paragraph, but the arrest appears to have

taken place in 1944 and the surrender surely was in 1945(?). But the surrender paragraph implies that the surrender took place immediately after release from a 2 week captivity. Can someone please clear that up?

[edit] Category sorting

The constant changing of the category sorting on this article has prompted me to raise the issue at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Category sorting as it appears that currently there is no guideline in Wikipedia for this issue. Evil Monkey∴Hello 08:54, Jun 2, 2005 (UTC)

Common sense would be the easiest guideline. Where are people going to find him the easiest? Maybe less than 1% would look first under the B's. Of the 99% who'd look first under V, maybe only 10% would think to look under B if they didn't find him under V. In a short list, they might find him by accident. Just look at this talk page; when he is referred to by surname only, it is always "von Braun" and never "Braun" alone. Gene Nygaard 10:57, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid the 'common sense' refrered to above is somewhat subjective (read: Anglo(?)-American)... Your argument/observations on the eyeball search-behavior of many readers may be quite correct, however, and so I wonder whether we should let the majority(?) of readers go on with their erroneous(?) alphabetic search ordering in this and similar cases, or whether we should make a correction/educational effort by, e.g., making dummy articles like "Von Braun, Wernher, see Braun, Wernher von", categorized under 'V'. Or, more generally, just include an article "Von X-type names, see X" into affected categories. (By all means please suggest better solutions; these are just illustrative.)

As for the surname referral fact, that does not influence the alphasort issue. Yes, he is referred to as 'Von Braun', but, still, 'von'-based names are correctly sorted under their respective 'main names'. In countries where many people have such names it doesn't make much sense to have them all piled up under 'V' (German-speaking countries, the Netherlands, and more).

Nevertheless, if the sorting practice (and perhaps even grammatical sorting rule) in English is of the type you argue for (and that may indeed be the right one; I myself haven't looked into the details), we might do the opposite of my abovementioned suggestions, and rather put in a 'B'-sorted article "Braun, Wernher von; see Von Braun, Wernher" (i.e. main article sorted under 'V'). --Wernher 02:38, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

German people are not sorted by predicates. His family name is Braun, "von" is the predicate. And yes, common sense would be the easiest guideline. Everyone perhaps except Mr. Nygaard would look under "Braun" and not even think that someone has been so stubborn ignorant that they have sorted him under "von". (I also don't believe that Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom is indexed as "of the United Kingdom, Elizabeth II".) --Anonymous

Quoting from above: << making dummy articles like "Von Braun, Wernher, see Braun, Wernher von", >> Yes, at the very least, this must be done if he is to be alphabetized under B. German usage has no bearing, in my judgment: he spent half his life (and most of his professional life) in the U.S., and he was an American citizen. The Library of Congress online catalog returns 18 books if you look for VON BRAUN, WERNHER, but none if you omit the VON or move it after the BRAUN or the WERNHER. Cubdriver

This is rubbish. He was a prominent researcher in Germany. Where he lived later in his carrier is irrelevant. He was German. The Germans are one of the ethnic groups living in America (originally Indian territory). Since he was German and not English, German usage must be followed.

Nonsense, whoever you are. When he moved, the nature of his name changed. He never was indexed in any English-language phone book under B, he is not indexed under B in the Social Security Death Index, he is not indexed under B in the Library of Congress Card Catalog.

Compare the rules for naming articles, where the rule is how the person is best known in English.

Furthermore, as was pointed out in the village pump discussion, the Chicago Manual of Style uses uses him as an example. [1] Gene Nygaard 08:02, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

replacement link as the one referenced above is no longer valid: Chicago Manual of Style sez (Courtland 01:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] German-American?

I don't think so.

Von Braun was a german. He was naturalised later, but calling him a 'german-american' suggest he was so all his life.Robrecht 13:19, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "von Braun" pronunciation

Is it "von Brawn" or "von Brown"? ✈ James C. 02:58, August 2, 2005 (UTC)

Most probably the pronunciation will be the same as the electric appliance company, Braun[2], which is pronounced as BROWN.

Also see http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa020401b.htm for more on proper pronunciation of German words.

It's easy to remember because of Tom Lehrer's song, which includes the lines:

Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown,

"Ah, Nazi schmatzi," says Wernher von Braun.

—Josiah Rowe 03:42, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

No, the German "Braun" is neither pronounced like "Brawn" nor "Brown"

[edit] V-1 and von Braun

The main article incorrectly states that von Braun led the development of the V-1.... This is a common mistake made by people who still think that V-1 and V-2 are just two different versions of the same weapon.

V-2 was a true rocket and a child of von Braun but V-1 was not a rocket at all. These two weapons have almost nothing in common (the V-1 was the world's first cruise missile and was powered by a primitive pulse jet engine [3] whereas the V-2 was a rocket propelled ballistic missile). Wernher von Braun was a first class rocket scientist and an engineer, never involved in plane design of any kind. At the same time, his team had nothing in common with the Luftwaffe generals who stood firmly behind the V-1 project. For most of the war the two projects run in parallel with almost no interference (if any).

--saxon64 13:42, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nasa Career- Carol Rosin

The section on Dr. Carol Rosin seems gratuitous. I also just did a ProQuest search and I couldn't find any joint work by Dr. Rosin and Dr. von Braun. Can it be substantiated?

I've done an extensive search by myself, and the only mainstream reference i could find about Carol Rosin was over at CNN [4] [5] that linked her to one Timothy Leary. GeneralPatton 07:17, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mittelbau-Dora Concentration Camp

The Canadian documentary series "Turning Points of History" on History Television makes extensive references to the Mittelbau-Dora Concentration Camp in their biography of Wernher von Braun. This is by far the most accurate television documentary on his Nazi career in North America.

I believe more on the camp should be mentioned in this article to reflect his character. His job at NASA is talked about, why shouldn't more on his job at a concentration camp be written into this page (without being removed or edited by those that think of him as some sort of a hero)?

It is amazing (and revolting) that a man who built weapons to kill British and Dutch civilians using Jewish, Soviet, and French slave labour should come out smelling like roses in America and be worshipped as a hero. Let’s also not forget his contribution to nuclear weapons development, fallout from such tests (high altitude explosions lifted by his rockets) have caused cancer to numerous people in the South Pacific and American civilians and military personnel.

I can’t say I was surprised though to see the footage of him with Kennedy riding in a convertible with a marching band draped in Confederate flags marching through the streets of Alabama. --RPlunk 17:40, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Did he ask for slave labor? Was he in charge of how the rockets would be used? Yes, I'm sure he did do some evil while in Germany, which makes his hero status all the more amazing, but he was not entirely responsible for this evil. Captain Jackson 05:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, he did ask for slave labor, he once personally ordered 1350 labor slaves per telegram. Many survivors of Dora-Mittelbau have confirmed that he visited the KZ frequently, von Braun has always denied it, as much as he denied that he visited any KZ, until a letter from 1944 proved that von Braun not only visited the KZ Buchenwald, one of the most unhuman Germans KZs, but that he personally picked labor slaves from that KZ. That letter was written by von Braun himself. Von Braun also denied in his autobiography that he ever wore the SS uniform; a photography that was published after his death, showing him in full SS uniform next to Himmler proved that claim wrong too. Braun has always denied - and very often lied - about his intense connections and collaboration with the Nazi regime, and only admitted facts after they were proven beyond any doubt.

Somebody who personally picks labor slaves, orders labor slaves, causes the death of at least 10 thousand labor slaves through his work,

But this is the crux. He was not in charge, so far as is known over any of the conditions that lead to the death of the slaves.WolfKeeper 05:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

He was not directly responsible for the conditions, absolutely true. But he was well aware of these conditions, he accepted these conditions and he ordered labor slaves into these conditions. He didn't create the conditions himself but used the given - deadly and unhuman - conditions for his own purpose.

who develops a weapon (V-2) while fully aware of the fact that it will kill civilians only (5000-6000),

It was WWII. Were the British and American people who firebombed the German cities ever convicted of war crimes? You need to consider context. Also, you need to consider that if he had gone around saying: "shouldn't you be nicer to these people?" He would have been branded a Communist sympathiser and shot. In the absence of evidence that he actually made conditions for these people worse I guess we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.WolfKeeper 05:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

No, Americans and Brits weren't convicted: Winners justice. But the development of weapons that would kill civilians is not one of the main charges against vB. And "The shouldn't you treat the labor slaves nicer" wouldn't have gotten him shot. It is only a claim in self-defense many former Nazis used on many difficult opportunities - like the infamous "I was forced into the NSDAP, SS, whatever - but I was never a Nazi". vB never even tried to improve the conditions of the labor slaves, although one could imagine many different attempts to do so - provided one wanted to improve these conditions - particularly of a high-ranking, highly decorated SS officer.--Twiw 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

For example, the Bombing of Hamburg in World War II- in one night 40,000 people died from a firestorm in 1943. :-(

Hamburg was a fully legitimate military target, you won't find many Germans complaining about that bombing. Dresden, though, that's something different. Even when I would cite the V-2 production of vB as one of the main charges against him - what I do not - then this could not be compared to those who developed bombs for the allies. Those guys knew that those bombs can be used for very exact bombings, vB on the other hand knew that his V-2 could impossibly be used to hit exactly a specified target, he was fully aware that his rockets would go down randomly and never ever hit anything particular. It was a terror weapon, built and used to terrorize and kill civilians.--Twiw 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

lies all the time about his affiliation with the Nazis - such a man can impossibly get called a hero.

The other side of the coin is that neither project Paperclip nor the tribunerals ever found anything truly damning about him (but his boss *was* charged with war crimes). So it really seems to be only guilt by association.WolfKeeper 05:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

When you read the link I provided in the article you will see that Paperclip did not care at all about charged against any of the scientists - rather than that Paperclip was used to cleans the scientists biography and to hide unwanted facts. vB never attended a war crime tribunal, though. He was way to important for the US military than losing him due to the outcome of such a tribunal.--Twiw 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that the section covering his Nazi career and his affiliation with the Nazis gets vastly expanded. --Twiw 00:15, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

It may very well be that Von Braun was the only reason that America landed on the moon. One or two of his key decisions seem to have made the difference that permitted a landing before 1970. For example, the Russian N-1 failed, partly because it was too small. Von Braun deliberately increased the size of Saturn V, and that saved Apollo. Certainly the Americans were extremely unlikely to have made it without German help, and he was the natural leader of the german scientists, and he made good decisions that were and are widely respected; the Russians lost their leader during the program and it never recovered. Indeed, it was cancelled. If the Apollo program had been later, it may be that the Russians might actually have finished their program, since the programs would have been neck and neck. Whatever else you can say about von Braun- he was a brilliant manager. Who is to say what would have happened if the Russians had won the moon race????WolfKeeper 05:04, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Even when Russia would have made it first to the moon, this would not change anything in the biography of vB. Getting a man up to the moon is a great achievement, not many would disagree, but on what that success was based upon must be asked. In Dora-Mittelbau at least 10 thousand people died for that later success, vB being fully aware of it. A brillant manager, maybe. In order to call vB a brillant manager you have to see him in a pure scientifical light. Excluding all and everything aside of his commitment to science. No offense, but based on such point of view one could call Adolf Eichmann a brillant manager too. I don't remember whom I'm quoting here (very roughly) but it's quite fitting: "The scientifical development of the V-2 and the production facilities, torture and death did not happen in two parallel universes."--Twiw 17:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

@wolfkeeper: Thanks for the Nasa link you provided, but you have confused von Braun admitting that he visited the production facility Mittelwerk with his lifelong denial that he has ever visited the KZ Dora-Mittelbau. Note that the plant and the KZ are two different places. Of course he visited the plant and he never denied it, but he insisted that he has never been inside of the KZ.--Twiw 21:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Von Braun in anime

Someone should mention Von Braun City from Yoshiyuki Tomino's Mobile Suit Gundam. It's an independent city(-state?) on the moon in the UC (original) universe.

Please do the research to clarify the query and then add this reference to the Cultural references section. I suggest creating a new subsection there called "In anime". Thanks for your input! David Kernow 21:27, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Featured Article

If we could only get some inline citations this would make one hell of a feature article. I don't know about his treatment of those working on the V2 rockets, and will leave that debate to others. But this is a long article about someone who contributed to both World War II and NASA rockets. And the rest of his biography is pretty neat, too. It's already been featured on the Italian Wikipedia.

All we need are inline citations and a nomination. Captain Jackson 05:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Much of von Braun's production team, however, was captured by the Russians

What happened to them? 67.40.249.122 06:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

According to the docu-drama "Space Race", they (led by Grotrupp) were used by the Russians to reverse engineer a copy of the V-2 (The technical drawings, etc, being in the hands of the Americans) but were then dropped from the Soviet program and left in "obscurity in East Germany". More accurate information on this and citations are probably needed before inclusion. --81.179.254.250 19:34, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

According to ...The Heavens and the Earth by Walter McDougall, "all they [the Russians] got were rank and file of the V-2 program, engineers and minor technicians scattered over the eastern zone." (p 45). von Braun took the core of his team (basically everyone whom he immediately worked with) with him to the US. The Soviets set out specifically to capture as much of the V-2 labs and personnel as possible, but they were not very successful; most of the important files had already been raided by Americans after von Braun surrended to them.--ragesoss 19:43, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] References for my AFAIK

The Nazi Impact on a German Village by Walter Rinderle and Bernard Norling:

On the whole the German bishops were pressured to respond to the proffered hand of friendship extended by Hitler and to rescind their opposition toward joining the movement. (Page 110)

Besides coercing some villagers to join the NSDAP in October 1933 and thereafter, the country leader tried to control the votes of others. (Page 114)

Industry and Ideology: I. G. Farben in the Nazi Era by Peter Hayes:

After the NSDAP lifted its membership freeze in 1937 and began seeking recruits from the business world, most of IG's chief executives felt advised or pressured to join the party. (Page 200, with reference to the testimonies of terMeer and Kühne, Nürnberg Military Tribunal, vol. 7, pp. 616-17, 636-7)

Settling Scores: German Music, Denazification, and the Americans by David Monod:

He said that he had been "pressured" to do so earlier, when he was working in Ulm (1928-34), but had only joined in order to secure the Aachen promotion. (Page 88)

Allianz and the German Insurance Business, 1933-1945 by Gerald D. Feldman:

the DAF pressured him to join the Party. He decided to join at this time, rather than run into trouble with the Party once again and possibly have the DAF (or President Amend of the RAA) insist on his dismissal on grounds of non-membership and then dictate who should take his place. (Page 452)

Is this enough? I have plenty more references. Now please provide a source that supports your statement:

...there exists no evidence that pressure was ever used to make people join the Nazi party...

Mushroom (Talk) 16:41, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

You have not cited any evidences. You have cited what a lot of the Nazis claimed after the end of the war: "I have been forced to join the NSDAP, but I'm not a Nazi". As you might know, after the end of WW2, suddenly no German was a Nazi anymore. That's what hundred thousands claimed, v.Braun being only one of them. And even when you would be able to actually prove that one or more persons were pressured into joining the NSDAP, this would have no reference to von Brauns claim that he was pressured into joining the SS. The SS was the most elitist of the Nazis organisations, the racial and ideological elite, and nobody - outside of the Waffen SS branch - was forced into it. --Twiw 17:25, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying that von Braun wasn't a Nazi or that he was pressured to join the SS. I'm just saying that the sentence "there exists no evidence that pressure was ever used to make people join the Nazi party" is not NPOV, since a lot of books claim otherwise. Mushroom (Talk) 23:51, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paperclip

part of the mission known as Operation Paperclip, an operation with the purpose to employ German scientists who were formerly considered as war criminals or security threats (like von Braun) in the United States.

This reads like the purpose of Paperclip was to employ war criminals. Paperclip did not employ anyone, the US Army did. Paperclip's purpose (and Overcast before it) was to make use of the scientists and to transfer technology. The use of war criminals was a consequence of decisions made during Paperclip, but certainly not the main purpose. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 16:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

I clarified my misguiding edit. Although Paperclips purpose was - at least partly - to get Nazi scientists into the US despite of the objections of the State Department, after cleansing their biography, it was like you said not the only purpose. --Twiw 18:21, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes- that's better. I was going to edit it myself, but WP was up and down and locked most of the day. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 21:58, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rocket science and politics (section title) and Nazi career in general

I suggest the section rocket science and politics being renamed to Rockets, Nazis and KZs, Nazi career or The Nazis rocketeer Reason for my suggestion is that no section title has any references to his intense affiliation with the Nazi regime, the section titles actually provide the impression that vB was in opposition to the Nazi regime (only reference in section titles to the Nazis is: Arrest by the Nazi regime(!)), while that was clearly not the case. An encyclopedia can not have an article about a highly controversial man like vB without accentuating his Nazi affiliation at very least as much as his arrest by the Nazis, what was actually a minor incident, after all the arrest was nothing but an "Ehrenhaft". I find it somewhat disturbing that an article on Wikipedia that is featured as a good article had almost no references to, let me call it the extremely unpretty brown side of vB, before I added some stuff. I mean, creating an entire section for his two-weeks arrest by the Nazis, but mentioning nowhere that over years, vB personally visited at least 2 KZs, personally picked labor slaves, personally ordered labor slaves and was fully aware of the circumstances the labor slaves had to "live" in - just to name a few points - provides the impression that the article is highly biased. Any opinions on that? --Twiw 23:33, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

KZ?

Go ahead and be bold, but please provide citations. You see to be a good writer, but you are not citing your sources in some cases. This will be important when other editors start looking at your entries. I'll tag a few that need cites. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 00:01, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, English is not my first language, I assumed that the German abbreviation for concentration camp (Konzentrationslager = KZ) would have been used internationally meanwhile. Obviously I was wrong.

One major problem I'm running into with the sources you asked me to cite is, that most - in some cases all - of them are in German language. And I'm unsure whether sources in German language would be appropriate here, very likely they are not. --Twiw 17:23, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I changed KZ to concentration camp so that us English speaking types would understand it, and it makes a good wiki link. I figured it out from context, but I have the advantage of understanding a bit of German and knowing how the Germans like to initialize longer words (of which there are a lot). --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NAZI arrest

I've tried to piece the two explanations together. So far as I know he was only arrested once, for two weeks. If we really do want two explanations of the same thing (and I'm not at all convinced), they need to be under one heading at the very least.WolfKeeper 02:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] SS photo

The article links to [Wernher von Braun in SS uniform]. Supposedly vB is the man in black behind Himmler, but I certainly cannot see his face. The site this is located, reformation.org is rather suspect and abounds with conspiracy theories. For example, look at the articles on Leslie Groves or the Kennedy assasination. The vB article does reference a book by Dornberger, but I don't have that in my library. I think this may be suspect unless anyone has a better provenance. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 14:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I read elsewhere (I think the NASA site) that the picture of von Braun wasn't full face. I had to look at it twice before I realised that it really was him; you can recognize him. I'm quite sure that that really is the picture in question. I do agree with you about the site in general though, but the picture seems legitimate.WolfKeeper 02:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kennedy photo

According to many histories, WvB worked for the ABMA in Huntsville for many years until the Marshall Space Center was created in 1960. The article said Werner was transferred to Marshall at that time. So why is WvB showing JFK around the ABMA rather than the Marshall center in 1963? Where did this photo come from, anyway? 71.202.68.103 05:16, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

(New entries here should go at the bottom of the page. Simply click the "+" to the right of "edit this page" to create a new section.)

Your question did make me notice that Army Ballistic Missile Agency needs a lot more work- there are a number of dates that are off.

It looks like the photo is from the Dr. Wernher von Braun Photograph Collection at the Restone Arsenal web site. There is no caption, just a date. Given the aircraft in the background, it was probably taken at the Redstone Army Airfield, which is neither MSFC nor ABMA. There a number of other good photos of Von Braun in this collection. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 13:17, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wan Hu

It says in Wan Hu article that "The legend of Wan Hoo was not recorded in any Chinese history book. It was first mentioned in Rockets and Jets written by American author Herbert S. Zim in 1945. It was then introduced into China via translation, and that is why what exact Chinese name this legendary person had (萬虎 or 萬戶) as mentioned above could not be determined just based on the pronunciation. This story is more an urban legend invented a half century ago, than a Chinese history record." And this article tells a anecdote about 12-year-old Wernher who was affected by the legend of Wan Hu, which means the legend was known in 1924. So there's quite clear conflict. Latre 17:32, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the same conflict, and changed the Wan Hoo entry accordingly. The Rockets and Jets reference is the first written mention of the myth. Presumably the von Braun family swapped stories about ancient Chinese astronomers when they weren't planning the final solution.Tafinucane 00:12, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I do belive I own that book.

[edit] Dr. Strangelove

I find it strange that the On film and television section does not mention Dr. Strangelove.

Ziusudra 20:12, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Popular Science articles

In addition to writing for Collier's, Dr. von Braun wrote for Popular Science, an American monthly magazine. I remember seeing the last of these articles in the early to mid 1970s. Anyone else?

[edit] College/university

The Technical College of Berlin did not become the Technical University of Berlin until 1946. Therefore, it would be more proper to use college with a link to the university article. --Gadget850 ( Ed) 11:28, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Christian in science?

Apparently his receiving a telescope as a present for his Lutheran confirmation is the reason he's put into the category of "Christians in science". Is there any evidence of his professing and/or practicing any form of Christianity in his adulthood?

--Hieronymus Illinensis 22:36, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun WolfKeeper 02:16, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

==Casualities from V-1 and V-2 attacks on Britain

The claimed total of 66,000+ deaths from V1 and V2 attacks on Britain in 1944 and 1945 is very different to the number asserted in the wikipedia entries for those weapons. They cant both be right. And the number mentioned in this article is implausibly large and more likely to be wrong

[edit] How do you pronounce this guy's name?

The article ought to include a pronunciation key.

[edit] Contradiction

The story given in this article about von Braun being influenced by the legend of Wan Hu at the age of 12 (1924) contradicts the story given in the section "The Origin of Wan Hoo" on the above-mentioned article. If the story of Wan Hu was not given in any Chinese history book, and was first mentioned in print in 1945, then introduced to China later, how could von Braun possibly have heard of it in 1924? Diego001 10:12, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

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