Talk:William S. Burroughs

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have new messages (last change).
 This article is part of WikiProject Missouri, a WikiProject related to the U.S. state of Missouri.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Portal:Biography
 Biography Portal
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the Project's quality scale. [FAQ]
(If you rated the article, please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

Thanks to everybody for this high quality article Moe Aboulkheir 02:21, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Archive 1

Talk:William S. Burroughs/Archive 1 Created 15 June 2006


[edit] The Headings

The Headings are too short, or too many, IMHO, and don't seem to follow a logical theme, so I tried to refit them. I also started an archive because as one person stated, the previous page was long and not easy to read/make sense of, although it is available in the archive, maybe a fresh page will help things. --Mikerussell 04:01, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Great idea, Mike. That other page was damned near indecipherable. I like the other edits you've made to the article, as well. But, I do have a problem with the whole "Burroughs-family-money" topic, and the edits you made in that section. Part of the problem, it seems to me, is that there is contradictory information available on the subject, and it is difficult to figure out what the truth is. That Burroughs received money from his parents is beyond dispute; that the money did not come from the so-called Burroughs fortune is, I think, also firmly established; how much money WSB received, and how often, is another matter entirely. ---Charles 04:19, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Burroughs fortune" again

Reading from Allen Ginsbergs Bio "Dharma Lion" Burroughs only got a one time payment of 10,000 from the burroughs fortune. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.75.10.20 (talk • contribs) .
I haven't read that source, but if you read the published letters between Burroughs and Ginsberg that Oliver Harris edited and published (forgot title but has to in bibliograohy) Burroughs is constantly waiting for parental cheques to get to him in Tangiers especially. There definitely is a repeated amount of money being sent to him, and his drug habit makes the money more and more crucial to his survival. I know when his mother finally died, he got about $10,000 inheritence, but that is partially because he was receiving so much cash regularly throughout his lifetime. Now, if you want to talk about dispelling the myth that he was rich, and was a wealthy "junkie gentleman" writer, I agree with you. He was barely getting by most of his life, and I think his parents supported his son too, sending him to private school. Even late in his life he was having constant fincial stress. He had to leave New York City for Kansas partly because "the Bunker" in the Lower East Side lost rent control status and the rent doubled. He never owned his own home until very late in his life, if you exclude the farm in Texas which didn't have proper plumbing or electricity. --Mikerussell 05:26, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vollmer shooting bribery

I agree the statement about the bribery needs to be cited. I'm sure any number of Burroughs biographies might be able to confirm or deny this, such as Ted Morgan's "Literary Outlaw". I personally had never heard of any sort of bribery happening, though if I remember correctly there was some family influence thrown around to get WSB out of Mexico. 23skidoo 03:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. I missed that when it was first inserted into the article, and such a fantastic claim certainly has to have a reference. In all the reading on the subject I've done over the years, I've never seen any mention of it. ---Charles 03:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Unless someone can verify this claim or at least provide a source, I support deleting it entirely. 23skidoo 05:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I am in complete agreement with that. Who added that salascious bit of information in the first place? Can we perhaps get an answer from him as to what his source was? If no answer is forthcoming, out it goes. ---Charles 04:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I'm not willing to wait. I've removed it on the grounds that it is unsourced and unverified. If someone can provide a reputable source then we can put it back (with proper citation). 23skidoo 04:39, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vollmer shooting bribery II &Grauerholz essay

I did not add the info (the stuff discussed right above on this page), nor do I really object to it being withdrawn, but I thought I would say that there is some support (see this link http://old.lawrence.com/burroughs/deathofjoan-full.pdf) for the ideas therein; namely, bribery and changing stories the day after the shooting. The source is a 70 page essay by James Grauerholz himself. After reading it I changed some things in the Vollmer article. Considering Grauerholz was such a devoted friend to Burroughs I was quite surprised at some of the stuff he wrote/uncovered, if I get more free time I might include some additions here. But whoever added the material may not be as off base as we are usually to think. I wonder if any more research from Grauerholz will be coming out?--Mikerussell 07:05, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that was me who added the material, and anyone who typed "burroughs bribery" into google would have found that Grauerholz article at the top of the list. I'm about to add the statement about bribery again, and I'll see if I can squeeze in a ref to the Grauerholz essay somehow. (What is so astoundingly absurd about the thought that someone might bribe their way out of a charge in Mexico?) -- Doom 07:55, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
Nothing absurd at all, but Wikipedia asks that information be referenced with a citation whenever possible, so therefore if there is a reputable source to support the claim, then no problem. 23skidoo 11:30, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Opiate subculture?

In regard to the following paragraph:

A collaboration with other writers of the opiate sub-culture, including Nick Cave and Tom Waits resulted in a collection of short prose, "Crack my Smack" later released as a spoken word album in 1987.

What, exactly, is the "opiate subculture"? This seems to imply that Waits is or was a user of heroin or opium, which I do not believe to be the case. Before I change the wording, can someone provide some information that supports such a description? Thanks. ---Charles 18:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Evil River

Anyone have any additional information on Evil River? I only learned of its existence via Amazon today, but it was written about as a "coming soon" book back in 2004[1], and was apparently referenced in Word Virus. 23skidoo 02:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I have created a stub for Evil River, but it needs to be fleshed out considerably. Anyone with additional information about this new book is invited to drop by. So far I've been able to track down an ISBN number and a listing at Amazon, but otherwise no other online sources despite the fact the book is due out within a month. 23skidoo 00:24, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image needs to be replaced ... or can it?

Thanks to a newbie screw-up, we've lost the image of Burroughs that was previously used in this article. Although I was able to find the image again thanks to an Answers.com Wiki-mirror I find I now cannot upload it as the image use tag that has previously been used ("promophoto") has now been discontinued as promotional photographs are apparently no longer allowed unless they're clearly released as non-copyright or press release photos. The Burroughs image had been essentially "grandfathered" (that or the copyright police hadn't gotten to it yet). So any ideas what we can do? I suppose we could always toss up an image of a Naked Lunch cover, but apparently we can't do THAT either. So does this mean no images for this article from here on in? 23skidoo 20:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Son's liver problem

This article says Burroughs son died of liver cancer, but the son's article (William_S._Burroughs_Jr.) mentions cirrhosis (though only as a header) and liver failure. Can someone who knows clarify his son's cause of death, and balance this point in the two articles? That'd be great. Doctormatt 02:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New articles

I've started several new articles on a few of Burroughs' short works; if anyone can add detail to these articles, please do. I've created Blade Runner, a movie, Ghost of Chance and The Cat Inside. It would be nice if we could get Book of Breeething out of redlink territory as well but I know virtually nothing about that book. 23skidoo 23:39, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commonplace experimental prose?

Regarding the following statement:

"The trilogy Cities of the Red Night, The Place of Dead Roads and The Western Lands - these are written as commonplace experimental prose."

Perhaps I'm simply up too late but I can't understand what "commonplace experimental prose" is supposed to mean, mainly because it seems contradictory. Can a literary work be both commonplace and experimental? If so, does this accurately describe the three books? -- Gyrofrog (talk) 06:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Also, where do his other books fit into those categories? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.225.141.203 (talk • contribs) .
I wondered about that sentence myself. It is both contradictory and inaccurate, and should be changed. ---Charles 18:26, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influences

It seems to me that the influences section should be revised. Denton Welch needs to be listed (from the Welch wikipedia page: "William S Burroughs cited Denton Welch as the writer who most influenced his own work, and dedicated his novel The Place of Dead Roads to Welch."). Probably Celine should be referenced too. I would delete Spengler, because I wouldn't call him a top influence on Burroughs' writing (just one among many). -—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.225.141.203 (talk • contribs) .

You are correct about Denton Welch. Burroughs stated in his interview with Larry McCaffrey (in the book "Across the Wounded Galaxies") that Welch was a huge influence. Spengler, however, should stay. Burroughs quoted Spengler frequently, and had absorbed Spengler's view that Western civilization and culture were coming to their conclusion. He encouraged Ginsberg and Kerouac to read Spengler when they first started visiting him at Columbia. (There are references for this in Ted Morgan's "Literary Outlaw".) ---Charles 18:41, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
.
Welch was a huge influence. I'm also puzzled that the article mentions a friendship with Anthony Burgess, a man who never figures in Burroughs' diaries or correspondence and whose work he despised ("... awful 'tour de force' novels... ") in Early Routines (1982). I tried to add this but it was omitted a day later. Fair enough, but drop the Burgess mention too. And by the way, it's impossible to read ten pages of Burroughs without his mention of a literary influence. Spengler it ain't. This isn't rocket science. -- Egomet Bonmot (P.S.: "I never met a Dane that wasn't bone dull" -- WSB)

[edit] Burroughs and cats

A rather bizarre passage was deleted regarding Burroughs experimenting with cats. I support the deletion; while The Cat Inside is an actual book I don't know if it really covers the experiments mentioned in the edit. If we're going to have this sort of material, it needs to be cited from a non-fictional source (as Cat Inside, while autobiographical to an extent, is to my understanding considered a work of fiction). 23skidoo 01:55, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Word is a Virus" Citation

I'm looking for the first occurrence in Burroughs's writing of the phrase "word is a virus." It is quoted in many places, and I have found several paraphrases of it, but for whatever reason I have not yet been able to find the actual source and date of the exact phrase. The phrase would be good to add to this article and it should be sourced properly for wikiquote. Thanks Amber388 22:22, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Have you checked the novella "WORD" contained within the Interzone collection? I haven't read it in years so I can't remember if the phrase appears there. The thing with Burroughs is phrases and themes reoccur in his writings, therefore "word is a virus" -- or "language is a virus" as quoted by Laurie Anderson -- could actually appear in any number of novels, short stories or essays. 23skidoo 14:05, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It's in his essay "The Electronic Revolution", and it's quoted on The Nova Trilogy page. The exact quote is "My basis theory is that the written word was literally a virus that made the spoken word possible". Nixdorf 20:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
And the good news is not only does The Electronic Revolution have an article, but the entire text is also available online (however as of Oct 15 the link isn't working, though the site says it's only offline temporarily). 23skidoo 20:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. So am I correct in thinking that "word was literally a virus" is the closest he comes, but that he never actually says "Word is a virus"? Amber388 22:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, in this source, anyway. I still contend he used the phrase elsewhere, plus Laurie Anderson quotes him as saying "Language is a Virus from Outer Space" which must originate from somewhere. I also recommend checking the introduction to the collection Word Virus which might give additional insight into the phrase. 23skidoo 00:30, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a spoken quote on wav where he says "word begets image and image is virus" and there is an interview where he states "language is obviously a virus since it depends on replication" but no quote like that. Nixdorf 19:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Paedophilla

This is a bit of an odd question, but it is somthing that I have wondered for a while-

It seems evident from his writing that he did engage in sexual relationships with people underage (for instance his 'boyfriend', of sorts, in Morocco who was 14, if my memory serves me right), as well as the occation when he mentions paying a couple of underage boys to have sex with him watching and him watching underage boys swimming naked in Latin America (as mentioned in Queer). He also refers to various people he is attracted to (particularly in Mexico, Morocco and Latin America) as 'boys', however this could just be that it refered to males of any age as boys.

At the same time, much of this comes from Queer and Junky which are largely autobiographical, but still qualify as fiction. Other parts come from his letters to Ginsberg. I'm not suggesting that we have "William S. Burroughs was an avant garde author, social critic, unrepentent drug addict and DIRTY PAEDOPHILLE" at the start of the article, but I think that this needs to be explored further and mentioned. I'm definately not a Burroughs expert, so others may already have answers to this question... - Gegen

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org../../../w/i/l/Talk%7EWilliam_S._Burroughs_b799.html"