Talk:Cremation
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I thought I had a link to an article on the Tri-State Crematorium case within the cremation article itself. Either I was mistaken or it had gotten removed at some point. The article on Tri-State has a little bit more information on the background of the case, part of the reasons this whole thing occured, and the aftermath. So I got the links put back into the main article in the appropriate sections.
- JesseG 04:34, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- I think there was never a link. Only now I learn that there is a separate article.--Patrick 09:43, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Re the recent addition, all the detail about Nazi extermination during WWII, beyond perhaps a simple mention and how it worked against Jewish religious belief, seems a little off-topic for cremation. --Gary D 06:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Hi Gary: I STRONGLY disagree with you as it goes to the very HEART of the issue of cremation as perpetrated by the Nazis and why cremation is such a major sore point vis-a-vis Jewish people as the most significant victims of the Holocaust in which cremation was such a big part as the bodies were flung into the ovens of the extermination camps by the millions, one of the 20th century's greatest stains on humankind. IZAK 06:53, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply, IZAK. Let me take a more inclusive position than what my dashed-off comment above may suggest. I think the essence of your information is indeed on-point even in a technical article about cremation, such as how it was used during the Holocaust, how it went against Jewish religious belief, and how it developed a sore point with the Jews as a result. I think on the other hand that material such as, "one of the twentieth century's greatest stains on humankind" would be more in context in articles on Nazism, the Holocaust, Judaism, human rights, and the like. What I'm suggesting is a slimming down here to the cremation-related essentials, but not the elimination, of the Holocaust reference, because the context of the article is more narrowly on cremation per se.
Along those lines, what would you think of the following draft, worked up from the current version of the last two paragraphs in the article?
[edit] Negative recent history experiences with cremation
During the Holocaust, massive crematoria were constructed and operated round-the-clock by the Nazis within their extermination camps (see also death camps) to dispose of the bodies of thousands of Jews and other prisoners killed in the camps daily. The bodies of millions of Jews were disposed of in a manner deeply offensive to Orthodox Judaism because Halakha, the Jewish law, forbids cremation, believing the soul of a cremated person cannot find its final repose. Since then, cremation has carried an extemely negative connotation for many Jews.
A more recent horrific event surrounding cremation concerned the failure to cremate. On February 16, 2002, over two hundred corpses that were supposed to have been cremated were found intact on the grounds of the Tri-State Crematorium in the northwest portion of the state of Georgia in the United States. The crematorium operator was charged with mistreating and disposing of the bodies in violation of applicable state law, and doing so in a manner offensive to the sensibilities of ordinary people. [1]
In the above draft, note that I would substitute "murdered" for "killed" and not think that too POV.
What do you think? --Gary D 22:10, 21 May 2004 (UTC)
Gary - I'm just an observer here, to this discussion. But I like what you wrote. Fernkes 21:05, May 23, 2004 (UTC)
Thanks, Fernkes, and thanks for the typo fixes; I copyedited this article late one night, and some of the resulting typos were embarassing! 8-0 --Gary D 21:40, 23 May 2004 (UTC)
Hi Gary, I would split it up, as you are equating the "failure" to cremate on the same "moral par" with the criminal crmation of millions of murdered (mostly) Jews. Thus:
[edit] Negative recent history experiences with cremation
[edit] The Holocaust: Abuse of crematoriums
During the Holocaust, massive crematoria were constructed and operated round-the-clock by the Nazis within their extermination camps (see also death camps) to dispose of the bodies of thousands of Jews and other prisoners killed in the camps daily. The bodies of millions of Jews were disposed of in a manner deeply offensive to Orthodox Judaism because Halakha, the Jewish law, forbids cremation, believing the soul of a cremated person cannot find its final repose. Since then, cremation has carried an extemely negative connotation for many Jews.
[edit] Monitering modern crematoriums
A more recent horrific event surrounding cremation concerned the failure to cremate. On February 16, 2002, over two hundred corpses that were supposed to have been cremated were found intact on the grounds of the Tri-State Crematorium in the northwest portion of the state of Georgia in the United States. The crematorium operator was charged with mistreating and disposing of the bodies in violation of applicable state law, and doing so in a manner offensive to the sensibilities of ordinary people. [2]
Thanks, IZAK. This "talk page" thing works pretty well; I think we've just about reached a consensus, in practically no time at all! I'm just going to fiddle with these subheads a bit and then move the whole new shebang over to the main page. --Gary D 06:44, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
Gary D: Good work, (if one may call it that on such a morbid subject). IZAK 09:12, 24 May 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Question about temperatures
Should this article include information about the minimum temperature for proper (i.e. sanitary, etc) cremation? This would include more information on pyres -- whether they work.
[edit] Suttee
Should there be some mention of suttee in this article? Maybe under "Negative recent history experiences with cremation"? -R. fiend 23:32, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
[edit] US Cremation Law
I was just watching an episode of Six Feet Under and a plot point involved the fact that it is US law that a body must be cremated in the casket sold to those paying for the service. I imagine this relates to mentions of rental caskets in the article. If such a law does indeed exist it is probably worth including in the article. --bodnotbod 03:12, Feb 9, 2005 (UTC)
- You'd think this would be the subject of 50 state laws and not of a Federal law. But it is very similar to the Federal "Funeral Rule" 16 CFR Part 453 which is enforced by the Federal Trade Commission (provisions explained here). It prevents funeral directors from falsely claiming that a casket is required for cremation, and requires them to provide an "alternate container". But as I recall 6FU the issue was re-use of a casket (that is, selling a casket twice) -- I'm not sure if that would be covered under the Funeral Rule or under state fraud statutes. - Nunh-huh 03:46, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Other cremation notes
Some more exotic cremation post-wishes have included being launched/scattered into space.
Also, one prolific comic book writer/artist (I'm not sure which) requested his ashes be mixed with the ink for the comic he was known for.
Ryan 02.26.05
[edit] Middle Ages?
- In Christian countries, cremation fell out of favor due to the Christian belief in resurrection of the dead, but in the Middle Ages rationalists and classicists began to advocate it again. In England, for example, Sir Henry Thompson, Surgeon to Queen Victoria...
Last I checked, Queen Victoria wasn't anywhere near the Middle Ages — and the rest of the paragraph proceeds in similar fashion from the 19th to 20th centuries.
I didn't just fix it because I don't know enough about the subject to know whether "Middle Ages" is incorrect and it was actually the 19th century (or some other period), or whether "Middle Ages" is correct but examples need to be added about the time between 1517 and 1837. --TreyHarris 17:57, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- I think you are right. I'm not sure there was any discussion of cremation in Europe during the Middle Ages - at that time, only burning at the stake was popular, and even then it was generally seen as a punishment. In Britain the first post Christian cremation was by William Price in 1884, and he wasn't particularly thanked for it. I think he was also a member of The Cremation Society, and probably had more influence in helping to legalise cremation. -- Solipsist 22:40, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
ATLANTIS MEMORIAL REEF Intersting site...seems to be the up and coming thing to do with cremated remains. I don't know how I feel about it. Seems like a really nice plan for this company to make some big money! http://www.atlantismemorialreef.com/home.htm -Sues
[edit] 04 Indian Ocean Tsunami
.. A brief summary of the Tsunami is given here as pretext to something dealing with cremation.. unfortunately, the content (at once, said around 300,000 death toll but the actual reported was around 175,000) cannot be expected to always reflect what is stated in the Tsunami article. As such, either non-specific references ("Due to the large death toll..") should replace the current text or the issue of cremation should be discussed in the Tsunami article itself with "See Also:" links placed in the cremation article.
Thanks so much.. Drumguy8800 06:31, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Linked Hebrew article
Can someone please confirm that this is an article about cremation? The English interwiki link there links to Furnace (and vice versa), but the photo apparently comes from the Commons, and does show a crematorium. Kelisi 00:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
GUADALAJARA..........Toledo es 100% AMERICA TOLEDO SE LA LONCHA
[edit] Pictures of cremation
Anyone else here notice that the guy doing the cremation was smoking while performing the cremation?
JesseG 05:01, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Matriarchal vs. patriarchal religions
I think this section is not very clear. There is no explanation of what these religions are and the links just lead to 'matriarchy'/'patriarchy'. Also the example of the pagan religion favouring cremation actually contradicts the point that matriarchal religions supposedly favour inhumation. Anyway, so I'm going to remove it to here. Perhaps it can be improved.
Religious reasons in Pagan faiths
Cremation is the usual means of burial in Patriarchal religions, the rising smoke symbolizing the deceased's spirit ascending to the domain of the Father deities in the heavens. Conversely, Matriarchal religions have favoured interment of the corpse, often in a fetal position, representing the return of the body to Mother Earth in the tomb which represents the uterus. Of modern Neo-Pagan religions, Ásatrú favours cremation. 131.111.8.98 12:15, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Incorrect Usage
"Cremation is the usual means of burial in Patriarchal religions" - Cremation is not burial, minor error, should be fixed Bmaganti 03:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] temperature discrepancy
Here it says that the temperature of the funace needs to reach 1600-1800 fahrenheit, yet here it states that the body is burned at 1400 to 2100 °F.
Explanation, anyone? Daniel tzvi 22:27, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
-- Yeah I saw this, obviously two different authors not checking their facts. What is more worrying is that the article has a picture of the undertaker removing all jewelry, but a bit further down it says that no jewelry is removed. Do we conclude that the smoking guy in the pictures is a thief then?? And for christ's sake, he has a cig. in his mouth at every stage, so I assume that the bone crusher machine, while containing the deceased's bone ashes, will also contain a few sprinkles of Mr. undertakers Marlboro as well?? This article is a bit of a mish mash at the moment. 11/6/06
The time mentioned for cremation - 2 hours ( and one per retort ) - should be of concern. The literature on the Holocaust insists that several bodies were burned using old technology and in minutes not hours. I would delete, scrap, etc these sections or you guys are in for real trouble - someone who is better read on their own sugject will scream soon. Right about now......
[edit] Religions prohibiting Cremation
The Presbyterian Church USA does not prohibit cremation. In fact, the following article from the PC(USA) describes how it is prefered by most members: http://www.pcusa.org/pcnews/2004/04201.htm
[edit] A question about removing the jewelry
Under the second "Image:Cremation1.jpg" picture it says, quoting: "The body is checked to make sure all jewelry has been removed.", but below in the text under "Burning and ashes collection" section it says that, quoting: "Jewellery, such as wristwatches and rings, are not removed.", so which one is correct ??
regards Wayfarer-Talk 
| on September 13, 2006
[edit] Temperatures
There are two different temperature ranges sstated in the article- should one take an average to know the true range?Guille 00:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Other reason for requesting cremation
My mother requested cremation because of the fact that graves often go unvisited (my grandfather and uncle, to name two in our family). Also, I recently read an article in Jane magazine where a mortician was asked by a Jane staffer what she preferred when she died, and the mortician stated the exact same reason. That "gravesites often are forgotten about" and that she'd rather be cremated. 66.92.255.54 20:43, 3 November 2006 (UTC)Leigh
