Talk:Diphthong

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Contents 1 Diphthongs of Italian 2 Something silly 3 Help getting more diphthongs 4 Italian diphthongs 5 Various changes 6 Glides versus semivowels 7 Semivowels(=semiconsonants) in diphthongs 8 Spelling 9 Definition of falling and rising diphthong 10 dude 11 eg Pedophile 12 Danish diphthongs 13 Portuguese diphthongs

[edit] Diphthongs of Italian

Are the falling and rising diphthongs in Italian labeled backwards? nidflocken 69.109.168.12 21:04, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Good catch. I've fixed the discrepancy. AEuSoes1 00:09, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Should it say 'falling' instead of 'rising' in this sentence? : "Note also that rising diphthongs are considered not true diphthongs by many phoneticians, but sequences of a consonant and a vowel." Otherwise it does not seem to make sense with the list of Italian dipthongs.

Actually, it's the other way around. Think of "rising" and "falling" as in the IPA vowel chart. If it's rising, it's going from one point in the chart to a higher position. Falling diphthongs go from a high point to a lower point and centering ones go from a non-center point towards schwa. As for falling diphthongs not being real diphthongs, I mentioned this elsewhere in the talk page but it really depends on the language. In English, they wouldn't be (except maybe the /ju/ in cute) but in Spanish they would be. AEuSoes1 00:54, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help...I think maybe we are agreeing...however, the article states that "many phoneticians do not consider rising dipthongs to be real dipthongs, but sequences of a consonant and a vowel". Does this mean that in Italian some people do not consider [ai] to be a real dipthong, but a sequence of a consonant and a vowel (if so, which vowel?) Sorry if I'm wrong about all of this.

Ahh, I didn't even see that. I've fixed the discrepancy. I'm assuming that since the sentence is in the Italian section that the statement only applies to Italian. If it doesn't, then we might need to move it up before listing off the diphthongs of different languages. AEuSoes1 20:21, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it, "falling" and "rising" diphthongs do not refer to relative positions in the IPA vowel chart (otherwise they would be synonymous with "opening" and "closing", and thus superfluous) but to whether the first element is stressed (falling) or the second (rising). Thus in English, "you" is rising and all the others are falling. I found a dictionary definition that agrees with me: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/falling+diphthong 84.70.24.137 23:08, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Something silly

Something silly: until I read this on Wikipedia, I thought my Spanish teacher was talking about "tiptongues" or "dipdongs". But I think I can be excused a little bit because she speaks English, French, and Spanish with a French accent... ok, end of silliness : ) --Dreamyshade

[edit] Help getting more diphthongs

need help getting the other language dipthongs identified

making progress! nice to see some Asian Language dipthongs!

Well, I believe Korean has some diphtongs, as might certain Chinese dialects/languages, but I think Japanese lacks true diphtongs. Not sure about the Indian languages.

Korean, Cantonese, Mandarin, and Japanese all have true diphthongs. I'm not sure about other Chinese languages, though. Anybody who tells you that Japanese doesn't have diphthongs either doesn't understand what the term means, or is going by some extremely idiosyncratic definitions.

I would presume that the poster above meant that Japanese has no phonemic diphthongs, which is different from it having no diphthongs phonetically at actual realization. This is similar to how, say, most NAE dialects only have three diphthongs /aɪ/, /aʊ/, and /ɔɪ/ (or equivalent) phonemically, and yet they have plenty of other diphthongs phonetically, such as [eɪ], [oʊ], and just any combination of [j] and [w] and a following nucleus vowel possible. -Travis 11:31, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian diphthongs

Here is a fairly good description of diphthongs in the Italian language (sorry it's in Italian ...) http://www.italicon.it/modulo.asp?M=m00199&S=4&P=5

Thers's nothing to apologize for.Cameron Nedland 16:12, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Various changes

I have changed many things in the wiki article since it was a bit confusing. Besides, "seem" in English is mainly pronounced with a long vowel (often with a diphthong), so I changed the example with "sum", which has always a short and stable vowel.

Carnby 84.222.53.158 14:36, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Glides versus semivowels

Again, in the article there's a confusing usage of the symbols [j] [ĭ] and [i] which should represent different phones. We should use a standardized transcription system.

Carnby 84.222.52.85 21:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Semivowels(=semiconsonants) in diphthongs

Not all phoneticians agree that semivowel+vowel combinations should be considered as diphthongs, e.g.: see Canepari on Italian diphthongs. According to this author, there are many fewer diphthongs in Italian than shown here, since semivowels are not proper vowels, so they can't be part of diphthongs.

Something about the different definitions of diphthong in use or having been used historically should be included here.

FT77 00:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

One thing to consider is rhyming. In English, "yet" /jet/ and "wet" /wet/ have the semivowel+vowel combination and speakers will tell you that they rhyme. However, in Spanish "diego" /djego/ and "fuego" /fwego/ do not rhyme (at least, according to the native speakers I've asked so far). AEuSoes1 20:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I think there is the [aw]-sound missing in the list for standard German (e.g. "Auto")

No, it's there. "[aʊ] as in Maus" AEuSoes1 01:50, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Isn't the word also spelled: Dipthongs. I have seen it like this before, and I think it should be listed as an alternative spelling. → J@red ^talk+ _ubx  02:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

The convention is to transcribe greek φ as ph and θ as th to indicate that the word is (prescriptively) pronounced with a labiodental and interdental fricative respectively. I've never seen it spelled in official circles other than phth unless it's in another language.AEuSoes1 10:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I belong to a linguistics message board and I've seen all three spellings (phth, pth, pht) often enough. I'm pretty sure it's just because people find this unusual cluster confusing. The "phth" spelling is the only one with dictionary recognition, and the other two should be considered aimply as mistakes. 84.70.24.137 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I've seen the spelling dipthong, and that is also how I pronounce it, along with some other people I know.Cameron Nedland 16:13, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Definition of falling and rising diphthong

From the article:

"Falling diphthongs start with a higher vowel, e.g., [iə], while rising diphthongs end with a higher vowel, e.g., [ai]. In closing diphthongs, the second element is closer than the first;"

This is not the definition I'm familiar with. I thought that falling diphthongs were the ones with stress on the first vowel, and rising diphthongs were the ones with stress on the second vowel. See the diphthongs of Romanian, for example; in [e̯o] and [uj], the height of both vowels is the same. FilipeS 10:41, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Stress is something that is applied to a whole syllable, not part of a diphthong. I think I understand what you're talking about though, since one part of a diphthong is typically considered stronger and the other weaker. You're going to need to provide a source for your definition, though, and also account for what "centering" diphthongs would then be. Keep in mind, also, that the terms for diphthongs are completely arbitrary and Romanian just happens to be a language that doesn't really fit well into the system. AEuSoes1 05:48, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Let me explain what I mean with a couple of examples. In Portuguese, there are diphthongs like ui [ui ̯] and iu [iu̯] -- or [uj] and [iw]; the difference (if there is a difference) is not phonemic. These are called falling diphthongs in traditional grammar because they are composed of vowel + semivowel. Yet both [i] and [u] have the same height! There are also rising diphthongs, composed of semivowel + vowel, for example uí [u̯i] and iú [i ̯u] (or [wi], [ju]). Again, in this case both elements of the diphthong have the same height. I understand that linguists may prefer more technical definitions than conventional grammars, but I don't see how the definition used in the article would account for these cases and differences... FilipeS 12:20, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, I found something that may explain some of what we're talking about [[1]]. For most of the article, the term rising has been applied to what this link describes as closing and falling for opening. It also includes a number of other terms. I don't really have anything bound that contradicts it so I guess these are the definitions we can use unless somebody can back up my original definition (or another) with a non-web resource.

This puts to question the layoutof the article. Why do we make distinctions between opening and closing diphthongs and not centering ones or fronting ones, etc?AEuSoes1 04:18, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I've made the change in the definition. The factor influencing whether a diphthong is falling or rising is sonority. A falling d. has falling sonority (so the tongue slides from a lower vowel to a higher vowel, in terms of the vowel grid, because that is how sonority decreases within the class of vowels). A rising d. has a rising sonority profile.

Thank you. I've taken the liberty of rewriting the definition a little bit. FilipeS 21:58, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] dude

in all seriousness, do you guys pronounce this word DIP-thong or DIFF-thong? KɔffeeDrinkerMcVonn 03:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I think the correct pronunciation is diff-thong. I say it dip-thong and it gets on my nerves when I hear people say it correctly. AEuSoes1 04:20, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

hehe. aight, cool. I'v always said (and always heard, I'm 90% certain) "dipthong", even from a legit linguist or two. now, monophthong- that's a funky string of phonemes right there. KɔffeeDrinkerMcIzzl 04:43, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I say DIP-thong (as in 'chips and "dip"', and 'that girl is wearing a red "thong"')Cameron Nedland 16:15, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] eg Pedophile

This article should explain as I believe to be the case, the American removal and ignor-ance of the diphthong as the cause of the American mis-pronunciation of words like Paedophile, because they spell it Pedophile. Why say wikipeeedia, but not peeedophile?

That has to do with language change in Latin and Greek before such words were ever borrowed, not ignorance. Greek-derived words with ae were never pronounced as diphthongs in English and the British certainly don't pronounce it any differently than Americans. See here for more. AEuSoes1 13:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes they do. In Kill Bill vol 1, The bride/uma thurman says the word 'pedophile'. I heard how she said it, it's the normal american way to say it. I'm British and we never say it like that! Surely this is because we spell it differently! --81.105.251.160 07:45, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Spelling has no bearing on pronunciation. What is the difference between the way she says it and the way you say it?AEuSoes1 01:30, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm back! We say the ped part (paed) as to rhyme with feed or need. Uma Thurman, and many Americans say it as if ped rhymes with said or fed. I accept that your superior knowledge of philology means that you may be right that it is not the spelling that is the cause of the difference. If not, then what is? Is it just another word that is said "wrong". -- Americans pronounc mobile as if there is no e on the end. --81.105.251.160 20:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Both pronunciations are "right" for the people who say them. The difference is just one of the many differences between American and British pronunciation (we say tomayto and you say tomahto and at least some Canadians say tomatto, but we all spell it the same way). User:Angr 20:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems British (RP at least) are more inclined to say 'ee' /i:/ where Americans would say 'eh' /ε/. Think of 'evolution', 'leverage', et aliæ.Cameron Nedland 16:19, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Danish diphthongs

This article has a serious omission: the Danish diphthongs that are, in fact, additional 'letters' in the Danish alphabet. Has anyone the expertise to add this section? I could only do so in an amateur sort of way. - Ballista 05:30, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese diphthongs

Some recent additions to the section on Portuguese are wrong. I have tried to discuss this with the user who made them, but he seems to have gone away, so I am going to revert them. FilipeS 21:21, 26 October 2006 (UTC)