Talk:Dragon Ball Z Power Levels

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This article was nominated for deletion on 23 June 2006. The result of the discussion was redirect to Power level (Dragon Ball Z).

Contents 1 Guestimations 2 Speculation 3 Citation 4 Levels of Canon 5 More Debate 6 The Strongest 7 Deletion

[edit] Guestimations

seeing as how there are no power levels mentioned after Freeza's boast, how can one claim to know this?

Well...you kinda gotta...GUESTIMATE! No duh!

-There are many power levels which i really can't find to add up. For instance, Buu is much more powerful than Cell and Mystic Gohan is much more powerful than 11 year old Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

Hahaha fixed!

-I do not believe in pure guestimating (I, by the way, am responsible for the list as it currently stands). I believe in using official sources wherever possible, and wherever it is not possible to do so, using logical reasoning based on consistency with the power levels stated by official sources and or the Online popularity of an estimate as the basis for any estimate. I've been working on my list of estimates for about six years now. --Super Saiyan Vegeta

-Whoever tried to alter many of the power levels stated by official sources, nice try. I happen to have all of these saved to a floppy disc though, so be aware that all I have to do to change them back is a simple copy/paste. I've fixed all power levels by official sources back the way they ACTUALLY read. I've also added a new section for the various theories on power level growth following the Frieza Saga, which I hope will satisfy everyone. If you can come up with a better way to word things then that's fine, but please don't just go around altering power levels stated by official sources so that your own estimates appear more credible. Just a thought --Super Saiyan vegeta

Just so that everyone knows the daizenshuus are not official there just estimation and covering souces that are not to be taken as cannon thanks-user:Megamouse

-Official source? Don't be so peremptory. There IS no official source, and your power levels are straight from the Japanese Daizenshuu and power levels derived from some crappy Dragonball Z PS2 video game (Budokai or whatever) that is far from official. 2) Your power level list is so horribly wrong that correcting it isn't even worth my time. Krillin being more powerful than a Super Saiyan, yet surmounting the million power level mark alone? LOL. Don't make me laugh. That being said, I re-edited the list, now it's much more plausible... and let me tell you this, Goku's base was around 3,000,000 - 4,000,000 AFTER he finished healing in the rejuvenation chamber, and don't give me that 'o well he used Kaio-ken' drivel because he never used Kaio-ken x10 until they had gotten serious after their little spar... around the time that Freeza boosted his power level percent usage to 50%... so he fought in his base for quite a while, which, conforming with your list, is weaker than Frieza's 1rst Form yet somehow miracously held his own against Frieza's 4th form? Again, don't make me laugh.

-While I appreciate the input, I must point out some key flaws in your reasoning. First of all, on the matter of Goku's power level while combating Frieza, in defense of those levels I suggested, I might also point out that King Kai plainly stated in the anime itself that Goku had been using the Kaioken attack quote "the entire time." I trust this resolves that particular matter. As for Krillin's maximum power level, I derived that from a plain statement on Toonami's website during their 2001 Online DBZ/Star Blazers promotional event. In all honesty, that estimate also happens to seem fairly reasonable, given the generally increasing strength of all characters combined with the lengthy time spanse between the Cell Games Saga and the Great Saiyaman Saga. As for the matter of deriving power levels from a video game, that particular title (Dragon Ball Z Sagas) did happen to be officially licensed by FUNimation, whom of course is the company responsible for purchasing and dubbing Dragon Ball Z in English for American audiences. This would thus seem to be a credible source of accurate power levels, especially given that many other power levels stated in the game match those stated in the anime and manga themselves. The Daizenshuus, by the way, are official Dragon Ball products. The few who doubt them do so only because it did not feature the express signature of Akira Toriyama, a fact which does not make them any less official or less realistically valid. AT ANY RATE, I think it would be most practical to address power levels from the basically neutral standpoint of relying largely on those sources that have at least some established credibility, such as those I've mentioned thus far, as opposed relying on random estimates proposed by random individuals such as, say, yourself. One might think that the company that produces the English version of DBZ and the company that airs it on TV might be somewhat more credible than ideas proposed by Joe Schmoe on the Internet. That's why I rely on them. By the way, I have all these power levels stored on my website now, so I can easily copy and paste them back in at will any time they are removed or altered. Just so you know. --Super Saiyan Vegeta

-Mate, the anime hardly counts as an official source. Read the manga, the ONLY 100% gratifyingly official source of all DBZ information you'll ever come to find. The animation is full of contradictions, plotholes, and fillers, and don't even get me started on the FUNimation English dub... if you can even call it that LMAO! And just because you read something off an English Toonami website doesn't mean that it was Kuririn's actual power level... not that he trained within the 7-year span, y'know, he settled down, had gotten married with #18, and had a daughter dubbed Maron? If anything, his power level had taken a drop over the transpired 7 years, and none of the humans reached the million power level mark alone... period.

So, the crap you see on TV regarding "DBZ English" is hardly unequivocal. It's all rubbish and nonsense.

And the Daizenshuu isn't official as it wasn't written by Akira Toriyama himself... like, for an example, Goku being stated to clearly have a power level of over 8,000 where the Daizenshuu contradicts this and just puts him at 8,000, and Nappa at 4,000 which insinuates that Goku should have a swift time defeating Nappa.... which he didn't, they exchanged even blows for quite some time and even Goku knew that unless he used the Kaio-ken (BTW, 1x and 2x doesn't exist, it's all in conjunction with the actual number, and x2 is just a posh, technical name for regular Kaio-ken itself.) that the fight would take a while. Meaning that the Daizenshuu can't be taken seriously, although we can infer that certain power levels such as Goku's base after healing on Namek upon confronting Freeza, Freeza's 50% power level, and SSJ Goku's power level along with Freeza's 100% power level aren't precisely accurate, but are rigorous in the sense that they had power levels somewhere in that range, basing this deduction on the manga itself.

With this said, mind providing an URL to your site?

-This is proving to be an interesting debate. Now you suggest that the anime itself is not a reliable source for accurate power level readings therein. Besides the obvious failure of common sense, I might point out that Toriyama did nothing to disapprove of or discount the estimates mentioned therein. You seem to be under the impression that if Toriyama himself didn't expressely say it, it's not true. The fact remains though that this is an officially licensed Dragon Ball product whose authority you are discounting. If anything, I would regard such authoritative sources as those responsible for producing Dragon Ball itself as credible until proven otherwise, not the other way around. I observe only minor, technical inconsistencies between the anime and manga, having exclusively to do with the challenges of keeping the TV show behind the manga in the storyline (as suggested in a certain Wikipedia article). Now you might have something right when you say that a number of key elements were ORIGINALLY censored by FUNimation in the official English version, but these never included power levels. Rather, the edits to do with controversial content such as language, smoking, drinking, the presence of blood, etc. The dialogue was butchered, but the consistency of the basic facts in uncontroversial matters is hardly a matter of debate. Furthermore, the fact that both FUNimation and Toonami acknowledge the power levels stated in the manga further demonstrates their credibility.

As for the matter of the Goku vs. Nappa fight, Goku easily outmatched Nappa after powering up. Gok was merely showing off at first and then got serious and defeated Nappa soundly using the Kaioken attack. Also, as I recall, Kaioken X2 is distinctly mentioned, clearly suggesting that there IS a difference between X1 and X2. Krillin's power level, let me draw a comparison: in the Trunks Saga, Vegeta also has a child by the name of Trunks by way of Bulma, yet I hardly think the matter of whether Vegeta increased in strength between then and the Androids Saga is debatable. It would logical that Krillin's power level would have also increased with time, given a similar situation. Just some thoughts.

Okay, you requested the URL of my site. Here is the URL of the relevant page. Be forewarned of the annoying ads. http://revolutionary.0catch.com/dbpowerlevels.html -Super Saiyan Vegeta

The daizenshuus just dont worry 

about that shit and what about

king colds power level is his
son weaker or stronger than him 

im serious we need to know that. Also after vegeta recovers from his saiyan saga battle with Goku he is somewhere from 25-40 thousand range not 24,ooo

the same goes for first form Zarbon.
Dodoria is somewhere from around 23,000
.we also need to resolve if recoome is more
powerful than jeice and burter just so we could
get this straightened up.-Fat Buu

-I'm not going to pander most of your nonsense, but there is no difference between Kaio-ken x1 and x2... except Kaio-ken, FULL STOP, is Kaio-ken x2. Kaio-ken x2 is just a fancy name for Kaio-ken. And proof that Goku had reached power levels in the millions, ten millions, and hundred millions in the Freeza Saga.... the French Daizenshuu.

[[1]]

People simply miscontrued the Japanese Daizenshuu, which is why so many lists turned out like this:

Goku: 300,000

-Kaioken x10: 3,000,000

-Kaioken x20: 6,000,000

-SSJ: 15,000,000

Frieza: 4,000,000

-50%: 6,000,000

-70%: 8,400,000

-100%: 12,000,000

This is crap freeza at full power is not 12,000,000 period. -Megamouse

-No he's not, he's actually at around 120,000,000 whence using 100% of his true organic body's full power.

I have revised further the powerlwvels to what i have concluded take a look vegeta-Megamouse

You idiot look what youve done this truly is some shit launches powerlevel is entirely unknown you bitch. -Fat Buu

-I am deleting the source references, as you've fundamentally altered the majority of statements by other sources (e.g. Raditz's power level is stated as 1,200 whereas you have it listed at 1,000 and yet still bolded). Thus, you have no reason to retain their references. As far as I'm concerned, you have zero credibility. You really don't know what you're talking about. You're just someone who thinks he knows everything there is to know better than those who themselves made the anime. I should go ahead and remove your power level list in its entirety too, but, unlike you, I'll be courteous and humor you. -Super Saiyan Vegeta

-I also proceeded to remove the bolding/italization on all the misquotations of sources. As you can see, the majority of such references were deleted in the process. -Super Saiyan Vegeta

I dont like you im an administrator and ill enjoy blocking you with that will you stop being bossy and running this page like a dictator its your last chance i advise you to take it-super saiyan trunks

i agree this would be vegeta needs taught a lesson-Megamouse

Umm, Raditz was clearly stated to have been at over 1,200, NOT just at 1,200, which is the same power level as the Saibamen, BTW.

  Iam sorry it was an error on my part

The anime and the magna are two separate stories. The characters in thw anime and the original magna are two seperate sets of characters and different people since one is a telivision show and the other a comic book. there two seperate storys and not the same wikipedia articles blur the distinction which is a problem-Megamouse

[edit] Speculation

There is no place for "guestimations" or "estimations" or anything else on wikipedia. Only actually STATED powerlevels from the manga and anime (and NO other source) should be listed. I don't have the time to go through and remove all these erroneous numbers right now, so I hope that someone will fix this right quick. Speculation is not allowed on here. Please get rid of it and use only factual information. The last powerlevel rating given is for Freeza in his second form, at 1,000,000. That should be the final rating listed here, because nothing else beyond that is true, or considered canon.

Daishokaioshin 01:25, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Since no one else was fixing this page, I did. These are the numbers given in the manga and anime. No estimates or guessing about things which weren't given. Some of the numbers before I fixed this were rather ridiculous too. Even for numbers SPECIFICALLY STATED people were putting all kinds of absurd powerlevel ratings. That's done with now. If you find there to be discrepencies between what I have here, and what is said in the manga and/or anime, then please correct them. Otherwise, do not revert this corrected version, or it will be introducing false information to wikipedia, which is considered vandalism.

Daishokaioshin 04:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

This is no fixed page... for starters, Nail's power level was stated to be 42,000, not 60,000. And secondly, Ginyu in Goku's body's power level was 23,000, not 20,000. And Freeza was stated to be OVER 1,000,000 in both the Manga, your precious Anime, and the Dub, not 1,000,000.

Thirdly, the official source is the MANGA, not the ANIME, get it right.

The anime is neither mine, nor precious. I know that is says "Over one million" but everyone and his brother jumps on my case whenever I point this out, saying, "BUT THE NAME OF THE EPISODE IS 'POWERLEVEL ONE MILLION' SO IT MUST BE ONE MILLION", so I just rounded down. I don't have every single issue of the manga on hand to refer to right now, thanks to people stealing much of my collection, which is why I asked that people who found discrepencies assist by correcting things. I KNOW that not everything I put in there is the exact number, but they're closer than the absurd numbers used previously, such as Goku having a powerlevel of six million after healing from his fight with Vegeta.

Thank you for your assistance is fixing this page. However, you may want to reconsider the manner in which you speak to others, as what you said came out as extremely hostile and condescending. If this was not your intent, then my apologies, but that IS how it appears to me, and others.

Finally, the numbers in the manga and anime are identical, so I believe that I have already "gotten it right", since the only difference is that the anime doesn't name certain powerlevels, while the manga does. Omission isn't the same as providing inaccurate information.

Daishokaioshin 19:00, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for the rather effrontery manner that I spoke to you in, I was just a bit riled up as of then. If you don't mind, I have edited the page to include all the stated power levels from the Manga, since the Manga is the official source of all Dragonball Z information, again. And the Anime and the Manga are hardly similiar - the Anime makes a hyperbole out of so many things and contradicts so many stated facts (not to mention a heap of plotholes that are an enigma in themselves) that while their power levels are generally similiar, well, let's just say that it's not such a good idea to use the Anime as a source of Dragonball Universe info.

Freeza was lying when he said he had a level that high its simply not true.

(The previous unsigned comment was made by 24.3.36.164)

Why do you say he was lying? What evidence do you have to support this claim? His powerlevel was 530,000 in his first form. This is a fact. It makes sense that in his second form his powerlevel would be over one million, since that would be double his first form's power level.

Just because you don't believe something doesn't make it untrue.

Daishokaioshin 21:48, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

how do you know it was 530,000 in is first form.

(The previous unsigned comment was made by Huyiop)

Because Freeza says so in the manga. He was facing a far weaker opponent. He had no reason to lie. He reads off Nail's powerlevel from his scouter, and then he gives his own.

Daishokaioshin 20:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

how does he know his powerlevel if it cant be read from a scouter,

(The previous unsigned comment was made by Huyiop)

Whose powerlevel? Freeza's? What makes you think it can't be read with a scouter? Obviously if he knows his powerlevel, then it can be evaluated in some manner. Scouters are designed for such a task, so it would seem likely that a scouter or scouter-like device was used to get that reading.

Also, please stop vandalizing my user page.

Daishokaioshin 23:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

its possible that a being can just know their powerlevel instincitly.-megamouse

(The previous comment was by Tojira Ikonoka)

what evidence do you have to support that he as not lying-fat buu

(The previous comment was by Tojira Ikonoka)

Why do you think I need evidence? The idea that Freeza would lie about something like that when he's facing an opponent greatly weaker than himself is ridiculous. He wanted to brag about his strength, and scare Nail (and later Vegeta, when he transformed to his second form) with it. He had no REASON to lie. Bluffing would be a pointless tactic in this case, since he could beat his opponents whenever he wanted to. Where do you get this idea that he's lying?

Daishokaioshin 21:32, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

oh go to hell

(The previous comment was by Tojira Ikonoka)

What is the problem exactly? I explained my reasoning, as well as why Freeza's powerlevel is what it is stated as being. If you find something wrong with what I have said, please point it out so that it can be discussed. Saying "go to hell" isn't going to help anything.

Daishokaioshin 22:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

ok then my problem is tis captain ginyus level is around 80,000gokus atthat time about 90,000 so freeza first form would have level of about 100,000 when not powered up

(The previous comment was by Tojira Ikonoka)

Why do you say that? Freeza was far stronger than Ginyu OR Goku. Personally, I believe that it was stated that Captain Ginyu's powerlevel was around 120,000, and Goku's was 180,000 (without Kaioken, since he was just powering up and wasn't using Kaioken at the time, but another user says he has the manga on hand to refer to, and the manga is the final word on these things), but that doesn't really have anything to do with Freeza. 530,000 was Freeza's MAXIMUM powerlevel in his first form. If he chose to fight at a lesser level, such as 100,000 (which isn't to say that he DID, just that IF he chose to) then it is never stated in the manga or anime. All we know is that he said his powerlevel was 530,000. Your speculation that his powerlevel might have been lower when not powered up is just that: Speculation. If you can find for me a canon source where Freeza's powerlevel, at any given time, is 100,000, then it will be included in the article.

Daishokaioshin 20:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

then what is his powerlwvel when not powered up freezas

(The previous comment was by Tojira Ikonoka)

I don't know, because it is never stated anywhere. There is no way to tell what Freeza's powerlevel was at any point aside from what has been said, because we can only go by canon sources. Guesses aren't appropriate for an encyclopedia like Wikipedia. Also, please stop vandalizing my user page or you will be reported to an Administrator.

Daishokaioshin 23:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Daios... you're certainly wrong about one thing. Goku's base power level was NOT 180,000, it was 90,000, which is a stated Manga FACT. And which he was using bursts of against Jheese, Baata, and Reacoom. In other words, he was twice as powerful as they were, which was more than enough to beat them around as effectively as he did. While Ginyu's maximum was indeed 120,000, does he ever actually USE this level of power? No, more like around 90,000. He just doltishly assumed that Goku's power level of 180,000 was his actual full power, when it was really him just demonstrating Kaio-ken x2.

I believe I DID say that your access to the manga, and the fact that you stated those powerlevels were what they were based on the manga makes them the actual powerlevels, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter. I don't have those issues of the manga handy, and can only remember from the anime that Goku was just powering up, and was not using Kaioken. If, in the manga, he was using Kaioken, then I am not disputing that fact, and am going by what you have said previously, and have put in the article itself.

Daishokaioshin 22:26, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Goku was certainly using Kaioken in both the Anime and the Manga.... couldn't you tell by the robust red aura and the Kaioken sound effect? (in the Anime, that is, if you recall correctly....)

No, I do not recall that. What I recall was Goku simply powering up. It has been a few years since I saw that episode though, so I suppose I could be wrong.

Daishokaioshin 01:43, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

i would like cannon proof that ginyu is 120,000 before accepting it-Tojira Ikonoka

(The previous comment was by Pouytrde)

It doesn't matter whether you accept it or not. Get the manga, and read the powerlevels given if you want proof, but stop vandalizing this article with your own (wrong) ideas about what is an isn't a correct powerlevel. We're making this article based on actual factual information, not what YOU think is best or acceptable.

Daishokaioshin 22:24, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citation

Could the user that fixed the powerlevels originally please provide the name and number of each issue where the given powerlevels appear, after each reading, in the main article? That way we can get rid of the thing that asks for citation, and says that things are inaccurate.

Daishokaioshin 21:29, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Levels of Canon

Just a thought, but maybe we should reference levels of canon instead of bickering over what is the best source. I'm not talking about fan levels- that's garbage as far as this page should be concerned. Speculation shouldn't go into the main article. What I'm saying is this-info from manga, anime, and Daizenshuu- in that order. Just like the canon article describes. None of this "the anime doesnt count" or "Toriyama didn't write the Daizenshuu himself," because they are officially licensed DB products. Seriously, my time in the Star Wars community generally shows a distinction made between film and Expanded Universe, not a disregard of one for the other. Not everyone reads the manga and not everyone watches the anime, yet for whatever reason we cover both within the same set of articles here. Put official figures up, and make the distinction as per the levels of Dragon Ball canon. Doesn't that make sense? Onikage725 21:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] More Debate

Is ginyus powerlwvel whether 120,000 or not ever actualy stated-Taracka

120,000 stated during his fight with Goku. Onikage725 00:16, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

530,000 was NOT freezas maximum it was when he was not powered up-Taracka

Actually, yes, it was his maximum in his first form.

Daishokaioshin 16:42, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

how do YOU know that it was not when he was not powered up his maximun was 700,000-800,000

...Because he says that's his powerlevel. He doesn't say, "My powerlevel not powered up is 530,000" he says, "My powerlevel is 530,000. Of course, I'm only using a fraction of that right now."

Daishokaioshin 19:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

stop running this page like a dictator you had the nerve to be rude to all these accounts WHO ARE YOU TO RULE A PAGE from now on your authority on this page is gone-Taracka

Excuse me? Ruling the page like a dictator? What I have done that is akin to something a dictator would do? When I have been rude to "all these accounts"? I don't rule any page. And if I had authority, which I don't, aside from that which comes with being being a knowledgeable contributor, it wouldn't be up to you to decide it is "gone". If you don't like the factual answers I provide, I am sorry, but the facts are facts. I don't decide what the truth is, and neither do you, so it would be best if you just accepted it.

Daishokaioshin 23:34, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

OH BUT YOU ARE all those accounts you blasphemed you have been engaging in an attempt to push false things into wikipedia i and the great and holy Tojira Ikonoka know that you must stop-Taracka

First of all "all those accounts" are YOU. YOU are Tojira Ikonoka who is neither great nor holy. I haven't "blasphemed" anything, and none of the information I have presented is false. I am done speaking to you now, as you seem more interested in trying to start a conflict than in coming to correct answers to your questions, when I provide them.

Daishokaioshin 02:34, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Strongest

Who is THE most powerful character in all of Dragon Ball Dragon Emperor 05:00, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The strongest canon character is Vegetto. The strongest non-canon character is Super Saiyajin 4 Gogeta.

Daishokaioshin 05:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

As far as I know, this is the only accurate article on here that lists ACTUAL powerlevels as stated in the manga. While I don't feel that there should be such an article on wikipedia, if we delete it, there will just be an article made by someone who wants to put up a bunch of fan numbers rather than the facts. This allows us to keep all the people who want to make stupid edits to power levels in one place, so they can be easily monitored and reverted.

Please explain your logic behind requesting that this article be deleted.

Daishokaioshin 18:06, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn’t nominate this article, but, well, how is it encyclopedic? This looks very much like the sort of thing that would be perfect for some kind of fansite. —xyzzy_n 18:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

The information on here is taken straight from the manga. There are no "fan" guesses here. There is another article with Daizenshuu lists and calclulated levels. things like if we know Goku's base and we know he did a Kaioken x 4, simple math will tell us what he was at the x4 state. Or if we know Gohan's levle and we know he went Oozaru, which multiplies his power by ten, then we can take the first PL, add a zero, voila. That sort of thing. Neither list has fan levels or any level past Trunks' surprssed reading of 5. Onikage725 13:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't see the point of this article. Firstly, the over one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_level_%28Dragon_Ball_Z%29) is more complete about what a power level is, and thus about what the "power" in Dragon Ball is, how it's used, etc. This article is merely a list of PLs, which is against "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information". Secondly, I can't see the point of having only manga PLs, the Daizenshû is indeed canon, people pretending Toriyama didn't have anything to do with it were mislead.
It's obvious the other article is more complete and accurate and I can't see the point of keeping this article alive... Folken de Fanel 12:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The daisenshuu are NOT canon in ANY WAY. They are as canon as the movies or GT, both of which Toriyama had "things to do with". Meaning they aren't. If you want to go with the other article, that's fine with me, but I believe the explanation of what a powerlevel is is adequate for this article. More text doesn't equal better explanations. The manga is the ONLY canon source for power levels. The anime leaves out power levels or misrepresents them. When the manga and anime coincide with their powerlevels, then the anime can be taken as accurate information.

Once again, delete this article if you absolutely feel like this article is the epitome of wasted space on wikipedia, but don't make claims about the canonicity of things that are false to support your arguments.

Daishokaioshin 18:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"Canon" doesn't mean "what Daishokaioshin likes ", but "what's part of Toriyama's story (= what he likes)". The movies aren't canon, nobody'll discuss that since they are side-stories. GT, whether you like it or not, should be concidered canon because of Toriyama's involvment (we know that he at least gave some minor ideas) and because he liked it. The Daizenshû is also canon work, since it was made under Toriyama's supervision, since he personnaly took part in the writing of some pages, since he approved it for release and since he liked it (yes, for these kind of databooks, the author always represents a sort of "quality control", he must approve the final product).Folken de Fanel 20:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Rather than inferring that I am basing my argument on what I like rather than what is canon, perhaps you should try being polite and discussing things with me. I really don't like your attitude. GT is not canon. Period. It is full of errors, and just because Akira Toriyama provided a few scraps of information that were then extrapolated upon by individuals completely unrelated to him does not mean that it was made by him. Likewise, the daisenshuu having some pages made by him does not make all of them canon. If you want to go and point to each page that was produced by Akira Toriyama personally and say, "These are canon" then I will not argue with you. But to take the whole of the daizenshuu as being official because of minor contributions is an oversimplification and just being too lazy to distinguish between what is and isn't canon.

I never said I didn't like the movies, or I didn't like GT. You assuming that I was basing what I was saying off of personal likes and dislikes was premature, irrelevant to the conversation, and a serious error in arguing your side. Don't assume things in the future without any evidence to back it up, just like you shouldn't make claims of canonicity without GOOD evidence to back THOSE up.

Back to the ACTUAL issue at hand before this digressed into "wah wah wah the daisenshuu ARE SO CANON because I SAY SO": If you feel that the other article better represents power levels in Dragon Ball Z, then feel free to delete this one as extraneous. I am not going to fight against it, because: 1. I don't care. 2. You're probably right, and I don't argue against what is right when I can recognize it as being such.

Daishokaioshin 20:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

• We're even, I don't like your attitude either. You're being childish, thinking nobody has the right to contradict you. But, hey, wake up, you're not Toriyama ! You can be wrong sometimes. So stop being conceited, I've seen many like you and you won't impress me, and your little game won't hide the fact that you've got no proof. So please talk to me normally, or stop this discussion if you've nothing more relevent to say. GT is canon, I already said why. Not everyone was pleased by it and by the ways it "explored", it has some contradictory facts (which is anyway strongly debatable, since much of it can be explained) but that's not enought to rule a Toriyama-approved series out. The manga itself is full of awfull mistakes, yet you don't seem to say it's not canon...?
  Then, about the Daizenshû, I don't think you really read what I wrote : Toriyama wrote for it but it was only a proven example to show his involvment (otherwise, biased as you are you would have tried to deny that he took any part in it). That was only the 1st part of my point, to establish, in an undisputable way, that Toriyama was involved. Then, every databooks of this kind have to be approved by the author (a kind of quality control) and if it was released, then it means that Toriyama had a look at it, and indeed we have statements that he read it and enjoyed it. Reducing my point to "Toriyama wrote a bit and that's all" is not very honest.
  "I never said I didn't like the movies" -> Did I said you didn't like the movies ? Your reaction was premature, irrelevant to the conversation, and a serious error in arguing your side. Don't assume things in the future without any evidence to back it up.
  "just like you shouldn't make claims of canonicity without GOOD evidence to back THOSE up" -> Well, where are YOUR evidence, then ? The Daiz' and GT aren't canon only because you say so ? But what happens when Toriyama says the contrary ? Which one of you is more "canon" ?
  Folken de Fanel 22:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm being childish? And conceited? I'm not trying to impress you, nor would I want to try. You may be trying to impress people by throwing around insults and trying to turn my words back on me (and failing) because you can't provide any evidence to back up your claims. And no, you didn't specifically say, "You don't like the movies". Which is why I said "inferred" and not "stated exactly in these words". If this article is going to be deleted soon, then any further discussion on this page is a waste of time. If it ISN'T going to be deleted, then you should be keeping your commentary to the article, and not trying to bicker and have the last word about what is and isn't canon when that has nothing to do with the article. The talk page is for talking about the article it is connected with, not the subject of the article. You may want to read up on such things here on wikipedia.

Additionally, I am not biased, and would not have denied Akira Toriyama's involvement in anything. You are trying to turn this into a personal issue when it isn't one. If you want to discuss canonicity, then contact me on my talk page, where such discussion is appropriate. But leave personal attacks, bickering, and behaving immaturely out of the argument, please. I've had my fill of rudeness from Wiki-star over on the Majin Buu article, and I don't care to repeat all of that stress with someone who has something to prove.

Daishokaioshin 00:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• Precisely, childish and conceited, and I should add stubborn, when you don't want to face the facts : that I'm right and I've all the evidence needed. That you won't admit what I say is true, is your own psychological problem, and it doesn't belong here. If you have problems in your personnal life, I advice you to go back to reality to face them, instead of living in a false virtual world, where you try to persuade yourself that you are the only source of knowledge about DB. Please stop, you're hurting yourself. Pretending you're the queen of DB won't make your life better. You being right or wrong about DB is not a matter of life and death, so when people know better than you, let them do their job and please, don't interfere anymore so as to maintain your delusions.
  Well, I've got a real life, so I at least can enjoy a little "waste of time" with you, but indeed, you shouldn't waste your time with Wikipedia and try to build you a real life instead. Such entertainments are for later.
  Me, trying to "bicker and have the last word" ? But dear Daishokaioshin, it's you who began to bicker: you made the choice of answering me about the Daizenshû (and not in a gentle way), you purposefully went off topic trying to have the last word. So now, it's a bit late to play the saint and pretend that I'm responsible.
  You're the only one turning this into a personal issue, what does Wiki-star have to do with this ? Why did you feel compelled to bicker over such unimportant matter ?

For the last time, all is say is proven, stated, acknowledged by all the DB fandom (except you, it seems). You want to say otherwise ? Prove it. Toriyama took part to the Daizenshû, he supervised it (every databook of this kind is supervised by the original author, and it needs his approval before it can be published), he approved it, he read it and he enjoyed it (he even said it himself in the very first page of the book). So seriously, how can you still pretend that I've got "no evidence" ? You must be either incredibly ignorant or incredibly conceited. Also, you make me laugh, you act everywhere like you knew everything about DB, but when someone "dares" to contradict you, you're being rude and repeat all the time "you've got no proof" and you don't say anything else...But you, the self proclaimed expert, when it should be your turn to show your evidence, strangely you have nothing to say but insults. If indeed you don't know what to say, why did you talk in the first place ?
So, the discussion is over, the Daizenshû is indeed canon.

If you've got no intention to say anything on topic, then indeed you should stop. I remind you that we're in the "deletion" part, if you have anything to say about that, please, do it. Folken de Fanel 01:43, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay. This conversation is going to be deleted if any more insults and irrelevant conversation is added to it. Talk about deletion of the article, not canonicity, which was dropped by me, and should not be continued when I have said I have no interest in discussing it here on the talk page. If people want to discuss canonicity with me, use my personal talk page. Furthermore, the personal attacks need to stop. You don't know anything about me, and pretending that you do is irritating, and puts you in a bad light. I never claimed to be an expert on anything. Those are your words, not mine. No more "Ah-ha, but I have this other thing to say before the issue is closed". Just drop it. We're talking about deletion of the article. Not me, not you, not anything else. If you want to make yourself feel important by acting condescending and trying to analyze me, do it somewhere that neither I nor anyone else has to look at it. Thanks.

Daishokaioshin 01:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Please, Daishokaioshin, now you're being ridiculous. For your own sake, stop being condescendent and acting like contradicting you is a crime. Please. If you've nothing to add about the deletion, then please do not pollute this talk anymore. If you have anything against me, or feel a burning desire to insult me for proving you wrong, use at least my personal talk page.
"do it somewhere that neither I nor anyone else has to look at it" -> Nobody forces you to look at this discussion, you know... Nobody forced you either to talk about the Daizenshû. Ñow if you don't want to talk about the deletion, don't say a word. Folken de Fanel 11:07, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not being "ridiculous" when I say to drop the matter and discuss the topic at hand. What is ridiculous is you trying to tell me not to say anything else, when I asked you to drop the subject and talk about deletion. As I stated before my message was deleted by 3bulletproof16: We are talking about deletion now. No more insults or personal attacks. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civil before you respond to me with more inane comments. This isn't about you and your ego.

Daishokaioshin 16:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

• You're being ridiculous when you say to drop the matter and when you continue insulting me and trying to avenge you for being proven wrong. See Wikipedia:No personal attacks and Wikipedia:Civil before you respond with anymore racial insults and other vandalism on my talk page. Folken de Fanel 19:24, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

What, you're still talking? Didn't you notice? The conversation is over.

Daishokaioshin 19:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

No! The last word must be mine!

Seriously, will both of you please stop? The deletion debate happens at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dragon Ball Z Power Levels; this page is for discussion related to improving the article. For discussing canonicity, I recommend IRC. —xyzzy_n 19:39, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for providing the link to the discussion about the deletion debate. It is useful for me to know that there is somewhere else I can talk about this. However, the conversation is already over. I have "stopped". I'm not discussing canonicity. If you wish to debate whether I'm doing something or not, or have some other commentary, please use my talk page rather than this article's talk page. Thank you.

Daishokaioshin 19:44, 27 June 2006 (UTC)