Talk:Fleshlight

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This page was previously nominated for deletion. Consider the following prior discussions before re-nominating:

Redirect, VfD November 16, 2004
Keep, AfD June 2006
Merge following an aborted nomination at AfD October 3, 2006
Overturn speedy deletion, DRV October 7, 2006
Closed due to DRV, AfD October 13, 2006
Keep, AfD October 13, 2006

It is requested that a photograph or photographs be included in this article to improve its quality.

Please note that this article survived 3 attempts to delete, and each time the decision was STRONG KEEP, so if you want to try and delete this article, I'd appreciate if you initiated a discussion instead of arbitrarily deleting. Arbitrary deletions will just cause me to recreate the article. If a decision by concensus is made to delete the article I will respect that.FleshJoe 04:58, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Here are some other articles that should be deleted if the Fleshlight article is deleted because it describes a product:

I'll stop at ten, I'm sure I could easily get 100s of product names to bolster my case. In fact I have not encountered one case where I was thinking up a product name, typed it in the search box, and did not hit a Wikipedia page for that product. About notability, please use Google to determine that: there are 2.4 million pages about Fleshlight and 275000 about Mazda Miata, 2.2 million about Dell XPS. FleshJoe 05:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

Due to the controversy on this article, I have added a Advertisment link. Regardless of the number of for and agaist votes in the last request for deletion, there was also a number of clean-up requests. Percz 23:08, 3 October 2006 (BST)

Alan I'm committed to making this article conform to the style guidelines. Please point out exactly what would help it conform. Would it help to point to some competitors? If yes, which ones? What other information would you like to see? I also have a comment about those requests for cleanup: as you know, Wikipedia is open to anyone. So whoever wants things cleaned up should do it themselves. I'm going beyond the call of duty and cooperation in agreeing to do the work myself. In the meantime, because I agree to clean it up, I'm removing your Advert tag. FleshJoe 22:13, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

For reference of previous deletion vote - [1] FleshJoe, the Wikipedia Advert tag needs to stay until the cleanup has been completed even though you are kindly agreeing to edit the article. Untill the edit is done there still needs to be a warning as the problem remains - this is Wikipedia policy. Percz 00:34, 4 October 2006 (BST)

1 Page deleted
2 Comments on new Fleshlight page
3 new FL article
4 Removals
5 Advertisement

[edit] Page deleted

Fleshlight and its representatives have contacted us, asking that they have sole discretion over the content of the page, because any edits could ruin its advertising value. This is a non-notable product. The page was created solely for promotional purposes. It is now gone. Danny 01:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Danny, was this a WP:OFFICE action? --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

There were concerns given to the office about this article and Danny acted upon them from my understanding. Despite not using the Dannyisme account, it's best to not restore this without asking him first, of course. Cowman109^Talk 20:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Concerns are fine, but there's also a greater consensus at work here. If this indeed wasn't an office decision, then something needs to be done. Some further explanation is necessary. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

As Brad made clear in a post to the mailing list, we should be doing everything we can to prevent using Wikipedia for promotional purposes. This page was created for promotional purposes. It is a page for a specific brand of a product, not even for the product itself. The manufacturers have admitted that it is promotional and have requested that they have sole discretion over what content is included and removed so as not to hurt their product placement. They have also requested that links to rival brands be removed. As for this being a brand, there are a heck of a lotta brands out there. Are we an encyclopedia or a marketers' forum. Are we going to maintain open editing, or are we going to fall subject to locking articles, just because people want control over them. Are we about to provide free advertising on the 11th largest website in the world, anf if so, are we going to start with minor products of no real significance? Are we going to put up with edit wars between rival marketing campaigns? Would anyone even care if this was some third rate laundry detergent or adult incontinence product, instead of a sex toy? No. Danny 21:24, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

So it was or was not? --badlydrawnjeff talk 21:33, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Danny, I very strongly disagree with the conclusion that Fleshlight is non-notable. It's quite notorious among the sex toy industry. As far as I know they have no legal basis for demanding that sort of control, and if the article wasn't NPOV that could easily be fixed. Georgewilliamherbert 23:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Whether this page's deletion was a WP:OFFICE action or not, could it at the very least be a protected redirect to artificial vagina? Even if you argue that the specific product is non-notable (which would honestly be extremely difficult) it's still a likely search term. --keepsleeping slack off! 22:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

As Danny has edited quite a bit since my question above, and has failed to respond, I've listed this at deletion review. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:22, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on new Fleshlight page

IMHO the article sourced from the Village Voice has no business there because it points at a lot of affiliate sites (e.g. babeland.com). Its just a crass attempt to get traffic to flow from wikipedia to an affiliate business. 192.18.43.11 19:13, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It's actually an attempt to demonstrate the notability of the Fleshlight product. As we're not endorsing or advertising any specific product, it's not a crass attempt at anything other than a neutral, sourced article. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:34, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The objection to URLs such as http://fleshjoe.com/fleshlight/videos/ was that its an affiliate site. What's different here, if anything? The Village Voice is an affiliate of babeland and is getting paid for the article. I fail to see any distinction at all. 192.18.43.11 20:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

It's a failed attempt to demonstrate the notability of the Fleshlight product. At best, even if the Village Voice and babeland.com were not associated, the article might be used as evidence that babeland was notable, and Fleshlight was notable at babeland. It doesn't not rationally imply that Fleshlight is notable. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 01:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new FL article

how come this article doesn't look like this anymore? [2]? the current page looks like a sales guide. --Philo 15:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removals

A few points for the editor who is repeatedly removing entire paragraphs from the article. Sourced material is usually not cut from articles without an explanation. An edit summary of "copyedit" is deceptive when removing blocks of material. It is standard practice to include an extensive description of product usage and criticism for articles on products. For examples, see diaphragm, dildo or even lawn mower. Please do not do this again without seeking consensus here. --JJay 20:38, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

One does not need consensus to edit an article. I like to get consensus when I can. I this case it seemed pretty clear cut. We aren't trying to write an instruction manual for a product. Also, the article isn't about masturbation, there is another article about that. Trying to push the book "illustrated guide to the usage of the Fleshlight" is not why the article is here. It is here to describe a notable product. What does it do? Why is it notable? Some detail about the nature of the product is acceptable. A guide on using the product, where to buy it, and advertising from people who like it has no place in the article. The second paragraph I deleted (shortcomings) was put there to give a faux NPOV to the previous paragraph.

What SHOULD be there instead of these two paragraphs are references to news stories about the product. Controversial aspects of the product (such as a recall, or injury, or lawsuit) might be appropriate if cited and referenced.

As to your comment about using "copyedit" when removing mnaterial, I agree with you. My apologies.

Atom 21:48, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

In this case it is not clear cut at all. An understanding of how a product is used is essential information. It explains "what the product does" to use your terminology. Without that information I would have only a very hazy idea of what the fleshlight is, particularly without a picture. This is all comparable to the Sybian article. Your remarks about "advertising" or where to buy the product or "faux NPOV" are completely off base; I would suggest you review the references. For example, both books are from major publishers and established writers in this field. They go a long way to proving the "notability" of this product (although "notability" is not an editing topic. If you are concerned about "notability" review the AfD discussion). I can see no justification for your removal of those references. Otherwise, if you have news stories regarding injuries or lawsuits, please add them to the article. --JJay 22:11, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your view. As I said earlier, information to explain why it is notable is the purpose of the article, so I don't disagree with that. The AfD discussion is in the past. I wasn't suggesting that I had information about injuries or lawsuits, I was giving an example of the types of information that would be valid for a product article. Product usage, in my opinion belongs in the users guide. I took it out as a simple edit to improve the quality of ther article. It seems obvious that we disagree on that. Other editors can make their own opinions. Atom 22:58, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

You also removed: "one of the best-known male sex toys" from the opening line - even though that is confirmed by multiple sources (which you also removed). Frankly, it's a tad bit difficult to meet your stated concerns regarding notability when you remove evidence to that effect throughout the article. The article exists to explain the product in all its facets. That means usage as well as the points you focus on. I have searched the references, though, and have found no evidence of either injuries or lawsuits. The negatives I managed to find from the em & lo book are in the article. Please add more. But let's not lose sight of the fact that we are talking about two short paragraphs in what is still a fairly short discussion of the fleshlight. The article needs expansion, not the constant slash & burn approach that some editors have been taking. --JJay 23:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

"one of the best-known male sex toys" sounds like a sales pitch, and several other users complained that it sounded like advertising. As it is subjective opinion, not citeable fact, it is easier to make the article stick to the point of describing the product, rather than a subjective characterization.

As for notability, no one is requiring a proof of notability. The AfD has establisged that it is notable. My comments are that the article should explain the notable aspects of the product, not "claim" it is notable.

As for expansion, I made several ghood suggestions as to ways to expand it. Expansion should be facts related to the product, not more claims, opinions or reviews about how great it is. Have there every been any laws suits? Is STI transfer a possiblity with the product? What characteristics of the product make it more popular than its competitors? All good material for adding meat to the article.

Atom 23:43, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It may sound like a sales pitch, but it is the reason why we have the article. If this wasn't one of the best known sex toys it wouldn't qualify for inclusion. That needs to be made explicit in the article. The statement is also fully sourcable and thus not our "claim" or "subjective opinion". It is the subjective opinion of leading experts in the field based on their research and publications. One of the other lines you removed was from Anne Semans where she called the product "the most popular sleeve on the market today". Hence, the statement was fully verifiable per WP:V standards. I'll add back a section on the product's popularity with footnotes. Regarding the "advertising" issue, complaints have been voiced by you and a user with 15 edits who suddenly appeared here after a three month "absence" from wikipedia. That is not exactly "several" users. I rewrote this article from scratch without even consulting the fleshlight website. I don't want to "advertise" the product. I want a comprehensive overview of its use and any related issues including popularity - not a a sanitized stub that fails to explain the fleshlight because of puritanism or fears that somehow wikipedia "advertising" is going to boost fleshlight sales (which is entirely laughable). Besides that, I have no problem whatsoever with your questions. They are all good. Responses require research and I can only encourage you to seek the answers and add material to the article. --JJay 02:07, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, let me reassure you that I am about as far from a puritan as it is possible to get. I edit many, sexology and sexuality articles, and so supressing sexuality is not my nature at all. Footnotes are always nice. But, really, my goal is readabilty and quality of the article. "The most popular sleeve on the market", how does that tell us what it does, or how it works? If it were a TV program, and it ran for 20 years (Gunsmoke) then popularity would be a key. This product is new, and its competitors are new. Even if we could correctly source and and cite sales figures compared to its competitors, that wouldn't be useful. If the product was heavily used in a clinical setting, and the effectiveness of the product was the subject of research studies showing how it did what it does well, that kind of information would be good to show.

I respect your efforts to build a good article. You have to open to letting others do their part as well. Part of trhat is writing, and part of it is editing. Having a huge paragraph about something usually nets a yawn from your reader who wants the highlights of the product quickly.

We aren't here to laud the product, we should be objectively giving information to describe how it works and what it is. Atom 03:00, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Advertisement

I think this page is too much like a tesimonial page for Fleshlight, what do you all think? DanMonkey 22:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. It describes the product and its use. Don't confuse information with advertising. --JJay 22:41, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I also disagree; why would an advertisement include shortcomings? --NE2 22:47, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

See my comments above. The para on usage, and the book is advertising. The para after that is made to try and make it look "balanced" with a weak attempt at "shortcomings". I've tried to remove both para's and I've got reverted. See comments above. Atom 22:51, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

There is no para on "the book". The books are sources. Why not just remove the name of the books in the text if that is what's bothering you. Furthermore, if you believe the "shortcomings" part is weak, then add more sourced negative material. --JJay 23:01, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I should mention that Fleshlight has had a very aggressive Internet campaign where the product is promoted from a supposedly neutral source. This includes myspace (And here in Norway, the corresponding service Blink) accounts promoting the product. I'd also like to mention that I brought up this page on #wikipedia @ freenode when it was in a much more blatant state of shameless advertising than it is now (Now it's just messy and non-notable) and it seemed several people there thought such advertisements were ok on wikipedia so I didn't take any actions on it. Debolaz 18:53, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

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