Talk:Hakka
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[edit] Discussion - who are Hakka?
I think the first line "Hakka is also another name for the Hani people, a Nationality of China." is inaccurate. As the article states later down the page, Hakka are considered part of the Han, while the Hani are not. I think the confusion arose because there is a dialect of Hani called "Ahka". See Ethnologue. --Franchin 10:22, August 22, 2005 (UTC)
How many of those what so called prominent Hokka people are from the Hokka region, speak Hokka, identify themselves as Hokka people in public or even know that there are people call them as Hokka people? If somebody's ancestor moved once in the last five thousand years, it does not make him a Hokka people.
- I'm not certain how accurate this is, but there is some additional information here. It'll be best if an explicit reference can be provided for each person on the list. http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/people.htm --BenjaminTsai 16:00, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
I tried to NPOV-fy this. It didn't really get -fied, did it? :-{ --Menchi 23:00 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Rumor has it that Hakka people has double toe nail on their pinky toes. Is there any statistic to support this genetic trait?
- That is indeed the folklore -- not really a double toenail inasmuch as a "split" toenail, and I have met some Hakka who have it, some who don't. But it might be nice folklore to include in Wikipedia, since the story is quite widespread. - Fuzheado 01:09, 30 Jul 2003 (UTC)
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- Aren't their toenails split (sometimes more than once) simply due to doing labours standing up (or walking) as a youth, and a lack of pedicure (a luxury that seemed meaningless to many)? Namely, the split is not genetic and cannot be passed onto their children, unless they work in the same condition as the parents did. --Menchi 01:12, Jul 30, 2003 (UTC)
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- My grandma is a Hakka, and she's a farmer to boot; but she doesn't own a double-nail pinky toe. -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
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- I am Hakka and I have the split toenail on the pinky... interesting enough I've never worked in the fields one day. So I doubt it is an infection. I've been told it is a sign of "true Han." So I think we can assume that it is some sort of ethnic characteristics that is cross-cutting and not genuinely linked to anything in particular.02:43, 4 October 2005 (UTC)
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Im Japanese and I have a split toe nail on my pinky which I got from my Mum and my brothers both have it so im pretty sure it can be genetic. (Edit by User:82.24.143.138)
- I'm Hakka, and I don't set any store by who has or hasn't got a split toenail. It is likely due to a fungal infection which you may have gotten as a child but being benign it isn't hurting or harming you in any way. Dylanwhs 19:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Hakka here, none of my relatives have got split toenails.. except for my grandparents.. maybe the trait is diminishing or what? or because they ve done farming and the newer generations dont? JoTp 03:44, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Some Hakka fled to Hong Kong while some to Taiwan during the Chinese Civil War. Is that true? -- Jerry Crimson Mann 21:20, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Hakka were already in Hong Kong and Taiwan before the civil war. I am not sure if there was another influx during and after the civil war. — Instantnood 21:34, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)
Goodness, so many many questions. I'm Hakka, and don't have a split or double pinky toe nail. Farmers in the past often worked in wet soil cultivation. It is likely that farmers, of whatever linguistic background, may have had infections on their feet due to the conditions they worked in. Discolouration and other effects on toenails are likely fungal in nature.
Hakka people have been in Hong Kong for at least 200 years. During the Qing KangXi era, the coastal area of Guangdong was evacuated because of piracy. I think it lasted for a number of years. When the original inhabitants were ordered to move, there was no provisions made for the refugees. Many of these evacuees ended up without anywhere to live, and many are said to have died of hunger. The coastal areas were repopulated but many of the original people had died, and so the Qing government decided to give a monetary incentuve for people to move and reopen the land. The five major clans who were resident in Hong Kong since the Song Dynasty and before, came back to their richer and more fertile land around the flat river basin areas, hence you see many of these clans occupying Yuen Long, Sheung Shui, Taipo, Shatin and the like. The Hakka who came to Hong Kong during the early Qing then had to settle in the less fertile areas, the hillier terrain, often in small valleys such as the areas surrounding the clan areas, and the fjord like areas my family come from. They've been there for at least 10 generations. Dylanwhs 20:44, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
why is Chen ShuiBien listed as a Hakka? He is not and doesn't claim to be. But no evidence is cited by those who say he is. And one cannot prove a negative.16:02, 4 October 2005 (UTC)~
- It seems in general more prudent to lay the burden of proof for affirmation. Otherwise people can go around picking the most influential people and claim them to be Hakka based on circumstantial evidence. --BenjaminTsai 15:51, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
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- Exactly - I've edited it off in the past but people keep putting it back without real proof. There NO CLAIM - NONE at all in Taiwan or anywhere, from the President himself, his office, Party, opponents, etc etc that he's Hakka. He doesn't speak Hakka, he identifies himself as "Taiwanese" ethnicity. BlindingCranium 19:06, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
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- I've been trying to do a bit more digging into this.. it seems (second hand information) that Chen Shuibian has claimed to have Hakka ancestry some time or another in the past, however the person I spoke with felt it was most likely motivated by politics (Hakka being the largest "minority" in Taiwan). Furthermore, having Hakka ancestry is different from actively identifying oneself as a Hakka. The number of people with some Hakka ancestry is undoubtably significantly larger than the number of people who actively claim to be a Hakka. What this means is a person looking for Hakka connection will find it in larger numbers than expected based on the number of people who actively claim to be Hakka. --BenjaminTsai 20:58, 7 October 2005 (UTC)
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Chen Shuibian has said many times that he is Hakka. His relatives in China still speak Hakka. http://www.zaobao.com.sg/special/china/taiwan/pages4/taiwan181101a.html http://www.people.com.cn/GB/tupian/70/20020815/800221.html http://news.sohu.com/16/96/news147549616.shtml http://www.zaobao.com/special/china/taiwan/pages4/taiwan030702.html
How about Li Peng? He's Hakka by blood, although he was adopted later by Zhou En-Lai & wife. It seems Hakkas only want to claim the more positive members of Chinese society, hehe. Here's a CNN article mentioning his heritage. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/1999/china.50/inside.china/profiles/li.peng/
In this area (Toronto) there are a number of Indian-style Chinese restaurants. All that I've asked seem to be Hakka. A google search suggests that this is not just a local phenomenon. What is the connection between the Hakka and India? Nothing is mentioned in the article. DHR 21:29, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] East Timorese Hakka Girl Picture
The picture that shows the East Timorese Hakka girl doesnt' look like a hakka chinese girl, she must be a mix!?. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.199.178.24 (talk • contribs) .
I meet a lot of pure blooded Hakka who do not look like Chinese. Is it a good proof that they are not the original Chinese as they try to convince themselves? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.137.4.69 (talk • contribs) .
How do you know if they are pure blooded Hakka? Have you trace through their ancestry? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.199.178.24 (talk • contribs) .
- What is a "pure blooded" Kejia? Kejia simply refers to the group of people who chose to resettle in the coastal regions of China with relocation money from the Qing government. --BenjaminTsai Talk 04:41, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
With apologies to Fernanda Correia (the subject of the photograph), I feel the picture should go. It's not a particularly good picture (thought bubbles?) nor a good representative picture of what a Kejia person looks like. --BenjaminTsai Talk 07:58, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
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- I have a great-uncle who is half-Jamaican (black). The Chinese half in him is Hakka, so he's a Hakka, he speaks Hakka perfectly, and identifies himself as Hakka. If anyone wants to be a Hakka, they are most welcome to join us whatever their skin colour is. By the way, Mao Ze Dong's distant ancestors were also Hakka, so did that make him and his descendants Hakka? 21 Sept 06
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[edit] Recent Changes 21 April 2006
I have edited several of the paragraphs so they read better in English. The previous editor referenced Han_Chinese#Internal_diversity but I felt it was not explained in terms of what we already knew about Hakka. Though the study was not about Hakka per se, it does throw some light on the intermixing and of past Hakka ancestors with indigenous local aborigines, such as the Jing Vietnamese. Further, census data showing a depopulated north after the Mongol invasion, also shows up as tp why the modern northern Han population has closer blood ties towards that end of the ethnic mix.
In 1998, a discussion on the Hakka Forum at asiawind.com yielded this insight into Hakka genetics and the bond with Cantonese speakers : both had close genetic ties [1]. Evidence of the north south divide in Han genetics was observed in the study Lau quotes, and further more, Mark Elvin's table of population in Fujian during the Northern and Southern Song was given in another message [2]. Dylanwhs 21:49, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- I think that explained fairly enough, the study (by Prof Yuan Yida) was about all southern Chinese per se, including Hakka who lived in Guangdong. The migration of Chinese thoughout the age from north to south are not necessarily due to the "invasion" of northern non-Han tribes (north Mongoloid though). I don't see any census data from primary sources showing a depopulated of the north after the Mongol Yuan invasion, however they did have increasedly population of the south during this era, let alone whether or not they were entirely from the north. 01:48, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changes 23 April 2006
"The Hakka ancestors are one of among all groups who migrated southwards and developed a dialect tongue of Meizhou in Guangdong. Even though they might be different from the Hakkas cheifly in Guangdong, Hakka people according to more recent perspective from the early 1920s are now considered to be found in the southern Chinese provinces..."
Unfortunately, the wording makes it ambiguous as to why they "may be different" especially since the former editor chose to highlight the Meizhou dialect in Guangdong. The part of the sentence "Hakka people according to more recent perspective from the early 1920s are now considered to be found in the southern Chinese provinces..." makes no sense, when it has been known since 1920 that Hakka do indeed reside in the southern Chinese provinces listed. Rather than introducing the dialect of Meizhou/Meixian at the beginning, it would be better to leave it grouped near the end about dialects, rather than regions where Hakka people reside at the beginning of the paragraph. With reference to the 1920 study of Luo Xianglin, in my last edit, I moved that to be included in the context of Han diversity further down the article as it does not seem appropriate here. I am reverting this section back to my earlier edit with one difference, the change of Tingzhou to ChangTing.
"The Hakka ancestors are thus just one group who amongst many migrated southwards. Hakka people are now found in the southern Chinese provinces, cheifly in Guangdong, south western Fujian, southern Jiangxi, southern Hunan, Guangxi, southern Guizhou, south eastern Sichuan, Hainan and Taiwan islands. The Hakka dialects across these various provinces differ, but the Meixian (Traditional Chinese 梅縣, Simplified Chinese 梅县) or Moiyan/Moiyen dialect of Hakka is considered as the paradigm example of Hakka dialects. An example of the difference includes that of the ChangTing (長汀) Hakka dialect found in South Western Fujian Province. "
Dylanwhs 09:56, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
- That's because prior to the linguistical study in 1920s, nobody would know that Hakka reside in those areas. Furthermore, Hakka in some part of Guangxi and Sichuan don't actually call themsleves Hakka, but instead an alternant name (涯、麻介、新民 etc), it makes prefectly sense, and please take note that Meixian is no longer called Meixian but Meizhou. 11:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
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- The different self identifiers like Ngai, Mak-Gai, Sin-Min, Tu-Gwong-Dung Va etc, are discussed in the Hakka_(Linguistics) entry elsewhere. WRT the extent of the Hakka dialects before the 1920's re: D. MacIver, A Chinese-English Dictionary Hakka Dialect, (1905), see the introduction to the first edition:
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- The present distribution of Hakkas is as follows - Many districts of Kwangtung (see below), parts of Kwong-si; the south-west corner of Fu-nam; the Ting-chow prefecture (and part of Changchow) in Fukien.
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- Stills, the author does not implied any others distribution around Jiangxi, Hunan, Guizhou, Sichuan, Hainan nor Taiwan islands based on his linguistical study, but Luo did, at least some part of it, so I think we should just change the edition back as its still makes prefectly sense. 00:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
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- This accounts for the majority of Hakka speaking areas. After reading through my notes from Hashimoto's The Hakka Dialect, A Linguistic Study of its Phonology, Syntax and Lexicon, Cambridge University Press (1973), Luo Xianglin's influential work was not produced until the 1930's, however, prior to that, many Hakka writers began discribing their dialects, and there are earlier pre-20th century but localised accounts of local Hakka dialects, such as Huiyang, Meixian and XingNing dialects.
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- In the Hakka linguistic literature, the name Meixian holds more currency than the geo-political modern renaming of the district to Meizhou. The work on Chinese dialects, Xiandai Hanyu Fangyan Da Cidian, edited by Li Rong, has the volume called "Meixian Fangyan Cidian". Lists of Chinese dialects words and phrases, such as Hanyu Fangyan Cihui, and readings of characters in Chinese dialects like Hanyu Fangyan Zihui, dictionaries of Hakka refer to the Hakka dialect of Meixian, as do general books on Chinese language discussion like Jerry Norman's "Chinese". As the name of the dialect in all these and many other sources list Meixian as the name, I think this holds much more currency, therefore I am reverting the change.
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- As an aside, I do know of people who wish to call the Hakka found in eastern Guangdong centred around Meizhou as Jiaying Hakka, as the old Jiaying prefecture covered just about all the smaller counties surrounding it.
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- Dylanwhs 19:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
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- It may holds more currency, but Meixian todays refer to Meizhou, naming it Meixian on the article are not suitable for the condition now, I will place an alt name besides Meixian on the edits. 00:39, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
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- With respect to Meixian, this is an actual town/city in Guangdong, but Meizhou is a prefectural district according to my map reference Zhongguo Dituce. Using Meizhou soley for Meixian may would lead to the impression that the whole Meizhou prefecture spoke exactly the same dialect as Meixian city, which, from a pedantic linguistics point of view cannot hold true as the outer fringes of Meizhou prefecture would I assume have phonological differences with the Meixian paradigm, as geographically, the area is quite large. In fact, modern Meizhou prefecture contains Wuhua, Xingning, Fengshun, Pingyuan, Jiaoling, Dabu, and other counties whose dialects are phonologically different from the Meixian dialect. The current status quote Meixian (Meizhou) can stand as it is, because it is sufficiently not explicit to indicate that they are interchangeable, but may in fact mean that Meixian is in Meizhou prefecture.
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- In comparison, Changting on the otherhand is the new name for Tingzhou and is a town, yet it has not been referred to as "Longyan Shi", but it resides in LongYan prefecture, Fujian. The other towns such as Rongding and WuPing also reside in the same prefecture, but they have phonological differences too with the Changting dialect. One does not propose replace Changting with Longyan, which may be precedent set out if Meizhou became the preferred name for Meixian.
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- Dylanwhs 09:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Mao a Hakka?
You've got him listed, but it's not mentioned in any biography I've read. Likewise for Zhu De, please give a source. --GwydionM 17:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
