Talk:Haleakalā

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1 East Maui Volcano ?
2 Improper move procedure
3 Will this work?
4 Bicycle race "Cycle to the Sun"
5 Future Eruption

[edit] East Maui Volcano ?

This discussion moved over from User Gilgamesh' user page.

Gilgamesh, what gives. No one (local or tourist) knows what "East Maui Volcano" is? The name is Haleakala. What prompted you to make that move? Seems out of character for you to use a mainland geology name for a Hawaiian mountain. - Marshman 04:10, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

My source is the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory. [1] As they are the most authoritative observers in the field, I would tend to think they are most authoritative. Besides, I added to East Maui Volcano that the whole volcano is frequently colloquially called Haleakalā, though this is technically only the name of the summit caldera. - Gilgamesh 04:12, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

And as for "mainland geology name", I think that's unfair. :P I know that Haleakalā is only the name of the caldera, and not of the volcano. What is the indigenous name of the whole volcano? I don't know. Do you? If you do, you can choose the proper name for the article. :P - Gilgamesh 04:14, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wow you were right there at your computer. Now I see. I went back and read what you had added, and I guess I do agree the correct name would be East Maui Volcano, although few would accept that, as Haleakala is so widely know as the name. Nontheless, I accept your explanation. If there is a name (Hawaiian) for the rest of the mountasin, I'm unaware of it. Sorry, hope I did not add to your stress level 8^). - Marshman

Nah, you aren't confrontational. But my lowest default stress level (because of arguing with too many trolls) is permanently yellow. :P - Gilgamesh 04:20, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Boy I hear you. I left for a month and half because of the trolls. I got back and immediately fell into a controversy on Monoecious vs Dioecious and related terms. But the guys turned out to be really cool and knowledgeable. We worked out our confusion and now have a good article - Marshman

^_^ - Gilgamesh 04:36, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Aloha. I'm not following your justification for moving a colloquial name to a discipline-specific definition. AFAIK, the standard is to do the exact opposite - redirect the specific designation to the colloquial, depending on usage. Your source, Hawaiian Volcano Observatory, states both names on its page, and in fact, explicitly states, The Hawaiian name Hale-a-ka-la (lit., house of the sun), is now nearly synonymous with the entire shield of East Maui volcano. As a resident of Maui, I feel that I can safely that say that nobody, neither a layman nor a geologist or an astronomer, refers to Haleakala as "East Maui volcano". The term exists to differentiate that region from the west, not to describe Haleakala. You claimed that Haleakala only refers to the summit, but apparently NASA and UH call it Haleakala Volcano, as do UH Botanists, Geochemists, Volcanologists, and conservationists. The facts are clear. Nobody calls Haleakala volcano , "East Maui Volcano" Before I undo your changes, I would like to understand your position. --Viriditas 10:45, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am going by two sources: proper naming standards and volcanic naming standards. By both, the name is technically East Maui Volcano. It is a mountain, and Haleakala refers specifically to the summit caldera. To use the common name, as common as it may be, is vulgar and inaccurate. I named the article the proper name, and Haleakala redirects to it, and I mentioned naming habits of "Haleakala" as they exist in colloquial language. I'm sorry, but "East Maui Volcano" is standard and correct, and correct scientific and linguistic information is of absolute importance to an encyclopedia. Not only that, but to persist to an inaccurate name is disrespectful to Hawai‘i. (By chance, are you a haole?) Please do not undo my changes, or I will revert them. Aloha. - Gilgamesh 12:27, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest we research this a bit more for the true Hawaiian reference to Haleakala. While I follow the reasoning provided by Gilgimesh, I also understand that a lot of mis-informed haoles have been bastardizing Hawaiian names for over a century; and to then claim some kind of "colloquial" standard as a reason to keep misinformation afloat is not particularly encyclopedic. It seems also possible, given the ease with which articles, redirects, and links work around here, that we could create two articles: 1) Haleakala about the summit area and 2) East Maui Volcano about the volcano, the mountain, and its formation. This might be a compromise that helps teach the (I think more correct) restrictive meaning of Haleakala to strangers and residents alike. - Marshman 17:29, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've already researched this subject, and Gilgamesh's position, including his personal attack, is not supported by the facts:

Proper Wikipedia naming standars state, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, which in fact, is Haleakala. The same naming standards make it clear that the convention is to use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things.
According to the Hawaiian Volcano Observatory, the two names are synonomous. Contrary to what Gilgamesh claims, that source makes it clear that Haleakala refers to the entire shield of East Maui volcano.
Correct scientific and linguistic information is of absolute importance to an encyclopedia, and a perusal of the relevant scientific literature demonstrates that published, peer-reviewed journals that study the volcano, do not call it "East Maui Volcano". The researchers call it by its common name, Haleakala volcano. I have already posted links to those studies and the researchers from disparate fields. Science World also uses the common name, as do geologists at the University of Illinois, and the Journal of Petrology and many geophysicists. When the term is used in context, the volcano is specified as Haleakala Volcano, East Maui.
Your argument that "mis-informed haoles have been bastardizing Hawaiian names for over a century" does not apply here. Hawaiians do not use the term, "East Maui Volcano". Gilgamesh's argument that calling a Hawaiian volcano by its Hawaiian name is somehow "disrespectful" is not only absurd, it's irrational. Yes, in early Hawaiian history the name only applied to the summit, but that is no longer true.
Gilgamesh's "standard and corrrect" redirect violates Wikipedia naming standards, and does not represent the standard name of the Volcano. Haleakala volcano is referred to as "East Maui volcano" to differentiate it when discussing the West Maui volcano". Gilgamesh's redirect is aking to someone redirecting the towns of San Jose, Oakland, Sacramento, and San Francisco to the article on Northern California. It wouldn't make sense. The East Maui volcano designation is more of a regional, geographic designation, whereas Haleakala refers to the volcano as it is commonly known. Wikipedia standard is to refer to common names. --Viriditas 21:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Finally, I would like to point you to further citations:

Beginning ca. A.D. 1400, Polynesian farmers established permanent settlements along the arid southern flank of Haleakala Volcano, Maui, Hawaiian Islands... Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Jun 29;101(26):9936-41. Epub 2004 Ju
Visible to infrared reflectance spectra are presented here for the fine-grained fractions of altered tephra/lava from the Haleakala summit basin on Maui... the dry climate at the top of Haleakala is more consistent with the current Martian environment.J Geophys Res. 1998 Dec 25;103(E13):31457-76.
Kitayama, K., and D. Mueller-Dombois. 1992. Vegetation of the wet windward slope of Mr. Haleakala, Maui, Hawaii. Pacific Science 46:197-220. [2]
These islands are mostly composed of lowland and mid-elevation forest, with the barren and fantastically beautiful Haleakala Volcano jutting abruptly out of the eastern end of Maui. Ohio University, field course, Island Biology
These rodents, particularly Mus musculus, exert strong predation pressure on populations of arthropod species, including locally endemic species on upper Haleakala Volcano.UH Pacific Science Journal [3]
Biking the Haleakala Volcano in Hawaii National Geographic
Experimental study of volcanic rocks from the Mount Erebus Volcano, Antarctica; field and theoretical study of the alkalic rocks of the Haleakala volcano, Maui Volcanology, Dept of Geology, McMicken College
The Maui-Kilauea project is chiefly a mapping project that enhances our understanding of the volcanic history of Haleakala volcano (East Maui) and the southwest rift zone of Kilauea (Hawaii). Hawaiian Volcano Observatory

For one thing, promising a revert was not a personal attack, it was a promise to reverse what I think is a mistake. For another thing, asking if you were a haole was also not a personal attack, it was a query as to whether you have native knowledge or not. Third, I really don't want to argue too much about this topic. If you want to perpetuate the bastardization of Hawaiian names, then go ahead. But at least use the ‘okina and kahakō where needed at all times, and retain a reference to "East Maui Volcano" somewhere. - Gilgamesh 00:37, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I will say, that is a lot of evidence, although not much of what I was looking for (what did the Hawaiians mean by Haleakalā?). Nonethless, it certainly would appear that we would well be swimming hard upstream to ignore the obvious synonomy accepted today. And as I first indicated, few really even know the name "East Maui Volcano". I suggest we move this discussion to the article (I'll do so; Gilgamesh can delete here if you wish). While pointing out the Hawaiian reference to just the summit seems enough for me, there remains the option of having separate pages, although I do not support that at present. - Marshman 02:25, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I'm starting to gather some information, and so far, all of the collected myths and legends that I've found point to the entire volcano as Haleakalā, and not just the summit, although it's true that the summit forms the basis for the "house built by the sun", which in terms of the legend of Maui, is important, because in one form of that story, the demi-god Maui observes the sun's path from west side of the island, which makes the sun look like it is moving across Haleakalā, and perhaps from that angle, even rising from it, hence the name. There seems to be several different versions of the same story. Either way, I'm going to continue digging for information. --Viriditas 06:29, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think it is important independent of the page naming - Marshman 17:16, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Improper move procedure

The manner in which this page was recently moved to Haleakala created problems with the history of the page. Please do not "rewrite" pages under a new name. There is a proper Wikipedia procedure for renaming pages, and it was not followed here. Had you all not done substantial clean-up since I discovered this problem, I would have reverted the move. - Marshman 20:28, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

With all due respect, let's try to maintain a friendly tone, here. Could you describe the problems you discovered? As far as I can tell, the page was moved properly. Regarding the changes to the article, they were not "surreptitious" edits. I rewrote most of the page, incorporating the information you thought had been removed. For example, I condensed extraneous information and eliminated more than 50 words (Macdonald, Abbott, & Peterson) by simply stating, "It is the worlds largest dormant volcano". I think clarity is important and should be encouraged whenever possible. I did not remove any information from that article without incorporating, condensing, and clarifying. For example, you addded back in, East Maui Volcano last erupted around 1790 when that is simply not accurate. However, I changed that to It is thought that Haleakala last erupted around 1790 which I think amounts to the same thing but is a little more neutral. Additionally, in the national park section, I rearranged the paragrah, so that the trails are named at the end of describing the challenge described. You may compare the edits here. The research section was added later by me as I expanded it to include prior content. Yes, I changed the article around, but the primary content, including facts and points of interest were preserved from the previous version. --Viriditas 22:44, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I was a bit overbearing there, but reversion would have been a proper response had I caught the "mistake" earlier. The proper way to "move" a page is to change its name. That way all of the history and discussion sections simply go with the new title. If you are the one that did the move (it could have been Gilgamesh earlier?), I think maybe you just moved selected text from East Maui Volcano to Haleakala, then made the latter a Redirect. That split the history between the two article titles. It also resulted in a large number of edits (such as you describe) that are hard to follow, because they simply do not show up in the history records. Not everything you did was an improvement (it hardly ever is for any of us ;^)), but because the article appears to arise nearly complete, past efforts by Wikipedians appear lost (they are not, but appear that way). As for the wording about the last eruption, I see no improvement (neutral or otherwise) with your version, as it is well-established that the eruption occurred; saying "it is thought...." simply implies that the factual part (occurrence) is not certain, whereas it is the exact time (date) that is uncertain. Such an approach is not an enhancement to neutrality but generally described in Wikipedian as using weasel words. You deleted all the supporting text for the volcanologists' assessment that Haleakala is not a volcanic crater (caldera), replacing it with the old saw about "the world's largest extinct volcanic crater". I saw no other problems with respect to content or organization problems. Again, it was the actual "move" that was wrong for the reasons I give above. Improvements are of course always welcome; but please pay attention to protocols when moving large blocks of text around. Short of reverting back to the old version, there is no way now to restablish the correct history of the page. - Marshman 01:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I see your point. I apologize for my error. From what I've read on this type of problem, there should be a way to incorporate the missing history. Since you are an admin, you should be able to do this. According to Wikipedia:How to fix cut and paste moves, administrators are able to fix this by merging page histories. Any idea if this can be fixed? It appears possible. --Viriditas 02:51, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

They do not teach that in Admin school ;^) but I guess I ought to find out how to do it. I did once read an explain that was so complicated and tentative, that my conclusion was to "forget this". But, as you are pointing out, I should be able to handle the fix, if I can find my cape — now where DID I put that....-Marshman Say, maybe you should be an Admin?

If you look at the example, it makes it pretty clear, and may involve a delete and a move. I suppose it depends on the page histories you want to merge. Yes, I would like to be an admin (and a developer), but I'm pretty new to Wikipedia and I'm still learning about policies and how the site generally works. Maybe I'll be ready early next year? In any case, I'll do my best to see if I can formulate a process for merging the page histories, after all, I contributed to the problem, so I should be the one to try to figure out how to fix it. All you would need to do is implement the procedure. --Viriditas 05:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Will this work?

Delete Haleakala with comment deleting to merge page histories - back soon.
Move East Maui Volcano to Haleakala, using the move tool.
Undelete Haleakala:
1. View page history
2. Link via "View or restore ... deleted edits?"
3. Click on "Restore!".
Revert to last version before move
Note: Results of undeletion may not show up for a few hours. A new edit may be required to force the merged history to reflect the most recent edits/version.

If this is not possible, then just noting the original source of the page and author credits on the talk page may be acceptable.

(Information from Wikipedia:How to fix cut and paste moves) --Viriditas 05:32, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

When I have time, I will give it a go. Somewhat confusing directions, but might work? - Marshman 06:06, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC) But right now I have absolutely no idea what this statement means:

2. Link via "View or restore ... deleted edits?"

Which puts me in the category of not understanding what I'm doing, and the 2nd option (just noting the original source of the page and author credits on the talk page) looks pretty good - Marshman 06:14, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC).

Since I'm not an admin, I can't confirm admin commands. However, I think it will make sense once you give it a go. I think the statement in question is merely describing a link you are supposed to click. I suppose I should read the admin guide and find out for sure. --Viriditas 06:19, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Ok, yes, I confirmed that point. FYI...according to Wikipedia:Viewing and restoring deleted pages by sysops:

if a page has been deleted, then sysops who click on the resulting red link gets a link "View or restore x deleted edits?" in the link bar at the top of the page (standard skin)...To undelete the whole, press the Restore button. If a new page with the same name has been created since the deletion, the restored revisions will appear in the prior history, and the current revision of the live page will not be automatically replaced. --Viriditas 08:55, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Bicycle race "Cycle to the Sun"

When I was up doing the usual touristy things on Haleakala they held a bicycle race, Cycle to the Sun (http://cycletothesun.net/) it basically went from sea level to the summit (a pretty long distance IHMO) - do we want to make a note of it -- Tawker 06:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)