Talk:Koreans

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[edit] Korean Uzbekistanis

I know, I know, there is a conflict between the 2 figures:

• 450,000 ethnic Koreans reside in the former USSR
• 1,123,200 in Uzbekistan

I took the information in 2 different sources. If anyone can sort it out, thanks. olivier 04:35, 7 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The government (?) of Uzbekistan gives the number of Koreans as 240,000 [1]. I take the first number is correct. However, some of the Koreans there might no longer be considered /consider themselves as such... Kokiri 18:25, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think this 1million+ estimate is complete crap, and am removing it.XmarkX 08:31, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] other countries

You guys are not even saying what the other Koreans do once they get into foreign land and what jobs they take just to live in the land. It's big news but recently sex trafficking is a big thing now for younger ladies in South Korea. Alot of these illegal act are popping up in America and even secretly around other parts of the world. It's really sad but then again it's by means of getting paid.

I have added other countries: N/A, just to give the (correct) impressions, that Koreans are not only to be found in a few countries, but in many others, too. Kokiri 18:16, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Source

I know that it would be a shameless ripoff... but the website http;//www.kimsoft.com/ has quite a good article about Koreans at http://www.kimsoft.com/2004/go-chosun.htm . The website says that all of the servers' content may be redistributed and copied at will. Couldn't we incorporate this text into this article? --Ce garcon 18:46, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure articles aren't worthy of us "ripping it off", if it's full of fringe theories about the impact and origin of the Koreans and claims like: "Koreans have the least body order [sic]...The blacks are the smelliest and the whites are the next smelliest. The Mongoloid has dry earwax while the others have wet earwax." --Menchi 19:57, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not saying it's perfect (that part is particularly absurd), but surely a great deal of it is useful content. And also free for us to use. --Ce garcon 19:59, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That it's "free to be redistrubuted" is often the sign of groups having the agenda to propagate their specific viewpoints. Once the credibility has been damaged (and in this case, severely so, just by reading the first 2 paragraphs), we don't know what, if any, part of the rest of the stuff can be trusted. Just glancing thru the rest of the article, I saw its claim about an ancient Korean king conquering "much of China" in 2000 BC -- another fringe theory, one I never heard of. Also, it claims Bohai Kingdom was a Korean nation, whereas most scholars now believe the Bohai people was neither Korean nor Chinese. The claim that Sumerians are Korean descendents is pretty farfetched too. So, despite its pretty maps and photos, we'd be wasting time to try to inspect the rest of that unreliable article. I know I won't bother. It's best to assemble info from other accurate and unbiased sources. --Menchi 20:10, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

www.kimsoft.com is a pro if not official (forget which one) DPRK site.......NORTH KOREAN propoganda

The following source can be cited for "Tungus-Altaic lineage" and related ethnic groups.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0500279748/sr=8-1/qid=1151291905/ref=sr_1_1/002-8720684-7432002?ie=UTF8

[edit] Korean language

In the text of the article Koreans, it is said that there are around 70 million Korean speakers of the Korean language. In the table in the article Koreans, it states that 71 million Koreans speak the Korean language. In the article Korean language, it says that there are, in total, 78 million speakers of the Korean language. Does that mean that there are 7 million non-Korean Korean language speakers in the world? - 68.72.139.128 01:46, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Save

[edit] Organization

I hope someone improves this article. - 69.212.70.138 21:21, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Stuff about Non-Koreans

With all due respect, I think this article is enough of a mess already, and does not need additional information about non-Koreans. Information about immigrant communities in the Koreas should go in the relevant articles, Demographics of South Korea and Demographics of North Korea. Any objections? -- Visviva 29 June 2005 10:06 (UTC)

I agree that the information about non-Koreans should be removed from this article. However, because I'm currently editing from a place which cens*rs the Internet in a maddeningly arbitrary manner, I cannot edit this article at all. Could someone else do the work, please? --Iceager 03:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

Has somebody a picture? I think, one of a Korean family with all generations would be great. -- 84.59.205.91 10:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Tall nose bridges are not something usually associated with Tungus peoples.

[edit] Data box

It may be outdated, South Korean population is 48,422,644 (July 2005 est.) according to the CIA World Factbook[2]. Shawnc 04:32, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Korean people in Mexico

Although it's still not too big, there is a Korean community in Mexico. I'm from Guadalajara, and as far as I know, the place where most Korean-Mexicans live is precisely Guadalajara. I've read a couple of newspaper articles about the topic, and I've also seen many Koreans hanging around many CNC's, a local franchise of cybers with Counter Strike running on their machines. (On a side note, the first time I went there I, back then a 17 year old guy, was totally pwned by a 12 year old Korean kid who seemed to be called Young Gu). I also have a couple of Korean friends who arrived here on middle school and soon integrated into our society.

So, I suggest some content about Korean Mexicans should be added. Who agrees with me? --Da nuke 00:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] structure

==History==
Main articles: History of Korea, Division of Korea, History of North Korea, History of South Korea
==Geography==
Main articles: Geography of Korea, Korean Peninsula
===North Korea===
Main article: Geography of North Korea
===South Korea===
Main article: Geography of South Korea
==Culture==
Main articles: Culture of Korea, Contemporary culture of North Korea, Contemporary culture of South Korea
===Language===
Main articles: Korean language, Hangul
===Religion===
Main articles: Religion in Korea, Christianity in Korea, Korean Buddhism, Korean Shamanism
===Literature===
===Arts===
==Institutions==
==Classification==
==See also==
==References==
==External links==

[edit] "Mongoloid"

My edit summary was mistyped, but my point is that the term "Mongoloid" in this article is a reference to physical anthropology, q.v. Northern Mongoloid. Substituting "East Asian" for "Northern Mongoloid" thus changes the meaning of the article. If anthropologists still use this classification, it should be kept; if not, then I certainly have no objection to updating the language, but the term as used here does not seem to be intentionally offensive. -choster 19:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The term is outdated and not agreed upon. Carleton S. Coon defined the "mongoloid" group. He used his own arbitrary specifications to define it. Most biological anthropoligists reject the idea of biological race in favor of clines of genetic distance. There were many definitions of who was included in the mongoloid race. Some used eye shape. Some skull shape. Even though most East Asians have inner eyelid folds some do not. Even though many East Asians have broad skulls some do not. These physical qualities vary from individual to individual. Carleton S. Coon used his own opinion to define who was a mongoloid. -- User:Dark Tichondrias14:05, 29 March 2006 (PST)

[edit] Koreans and the Han Chinese

It is really doesn't matter much whether koreans genetically or culturally related to chinese or not. It would be better off for both to exclude the koreans from chinese culture sphere, due to korean nationalist fever. indeed, identify them with japanese and turks is historically more correct.

There have been several studies linking the Korean genetic relationship with Han Chinese. Do a Pubmed and Google search. User Appleby has been repeatedly removing the Han Chinese entry in the "possibly related ethnic group" section of the yellow box. That is Korean (or Great Altai) Chauvinism and extremely POV. The Han Chinese relation for ethnic Koreans is AT LEAST as strong as the Mongolian, Tungusic , and Tibetan relation. Linguistics is not the sole barometer of ethnic groups. 128.135.36.159 20:07, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

please provide reputable sources, per WP:V. thanks. Appleby 20:36, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I will, but where is said reputable sources for the Korean relations with the Japanese or Manchurians? Your double standards are glaring. I have removed all entries under the "related ethnic group" section for the time being. 128.135.36.159 21:25, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Check the Joong-ang Daily article reference in Japanese people article for Korean relatedness to Japanese. Also, check Yayoi and Jomon pages for further references. [3], [4], etc. Deiaemeth 00:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Where are the Manchurian citations? Ethnicity is multifaceted: it is genetic, linguistic and cultural. Koreans have been a Confucian agricultural society for nearly as long as the Han Chinese and far longer than the Japanese. Manchurian records from the 1600s specifically DENY any genealogical relations with the Koreans.

Linguistics and genetics are two very separate things. The Korean language may possibly be Altaic (even this is contentious) and the Han Chinese language is Sino-Tibetan, but a fundamental tenant of linguistics is that these differences do not reflect the actual genetic makeup of the populations speaking them. The Koreans today are closely related to the Han Chinese in both genetics and culture. That is more than enough to put the Han Chinese as a "possibly" related ethnic group. The Korean people were directly related to the early migrants coming north from China. Bordering peoples have infulenced the genetic makeup. The refusal to put Han Chinese there (at the same time eagerly adding Manchurians and Japanese) is nothing but POV Korean Chauvinism and revisionism.

Study of Korean Male Origins (abstract)[5]

Sunghee Hong, Seong-Gene Lee, Yongsook Yoon, Kyuyoung Song

University of Ulsan College of Medicine, 388-1 Poongnap-dong, Songpa-ku, Seoul, Korea

Population studies of genetic markers such as HLA variation and mitochondrial DNA have been used to understand human origins, demographic and migration history. Recently, diversity on the nonrecombining portion of the Y chromosome (NRY) has been applied to the study of human history. Since NRY is passed from father to son without recombination, polymorphisms in this region are valuable for investigating male-mediated gene flow and for complementing maternally based studies of mtDNA. Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of Korean. By using 38 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphism markers, we analyzed the genetic structure of 195 Korean males. The Korean males were characterized by a diverse set of 4 haplogroups (Groups IV, V, VII, X) and 14 haplotypes that were also present in Chinese. The most frequent haplogroup in Korean was Group VII (82.6%). It was also the most frequent haplogroup in Chinese (95%) as well as in Japanese (45%). The frequencies of the haplogroups V, IV, and X were 15.4%, 1%, and 1%, respectively. The second most frequent haplogroup V in Korean was not present in Chinese, but its frequency was similar in Japanese. We have tried to correlate the Y variation with surname to determine how well the clan membership corresponds to Y variation. There were 37 surnames in our sample but genetic variation structure did not correlate with surnames.

Also, check the Japan Times article linking some members of Japanese Yayoi to the Yangtze Region of China. [6]

Naus 18:32, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

no need to get excited, i was just asking for references. the general flow of migration from northeast asia (mongol/manchu) to korea (& thereafter, broadly speaking, to japan) is widely accepted, pretty much common knowledge, but i was under the impression that while there certainly was extensive interbreeding and cultural exchange with han chinese, there wasn't a close "ethnic" relationship, depending, of course, on the definition of "ethnic" and "relationship." it's news to me, & apparently to the editors who have edited this article for a long time. again, if the scholarly consensus is that there is an ethnic relationship, that's great. Appleby 19:17, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Koryosaram

How outdated is the (Soviet?) term 고려사람/Корё сарам? The Russian 2002 census lists only five “Корё сарам” as opposed to 148,534 “Корейцы”.[7] Wikipeditor 20:19, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Continuing this discussion at Talk:Koryo-saram#Autonym. cab 01:17, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Related Ethnic Groups

202.156.6.54 keeps on adding 'northern Han Chinese' to related ethnic groups. There are no reputable sources that verify this kind of relationship. Ethnic relationship with Han Chinese is best represented by 'Dongyi'. To quote Gina L. Barnes, "Protohistoric ethnic groupings in the Central Plain region. This modern reconstruction places the Dongyi, who were perhaps related to the Bronze-Age population on the Korean Peninsula, in the coastal areas, with the Yellow River drainage occupied by the 'true Chinese'(Hua Xia)."

[edit] contents added under Koreans in China section.

I added info about South Korean expats and NOrth Korean refugees in Korean in China section.link of "wudaokou" and "wangjing" need to be fixed (i am a noob).some numbers require verification. Thanks. Shenya

[edit] Korean people outside of Korea --- split to new article?

Anyone object if I split this section out to a new page? I think Ethnic Korean (which currently redirects here) would be an ideal location for it; the term has 428 hits on Google Books, and not a single one of the top 100 use the term to refer to Koreans in Korea, only Koreans outside of Korea. (This matches some usages within Wikipedia; e.g. Ethnic German vs. German people; Ethnic Chinese vs. Chinese people. But not others, e.g. Ethnic Japanese).

Alternatives: Overseas Korean gets some hits (75 on Google Books), but it doesn't seem to be as popular a term. It also might be prone to misunderstanding (e.g. should Koreans in Northeast China really be called Overseas Koreans, or just "Overland Koreans"? Then again, Ethnic Chinese in Korea are often referred to as Overseas Chinese; but most of them came from Shandong on the mid-northern coast, so they probably actually did travel over water to reach Korea). Comments? cab 03:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] on Korean "homogeneity"

I'm not so sure how "homogeneous" Koreans really are... Whether or not people want to admit it, and whether or not they realize it, today's Koreans are in fact, like most (if not all) peoples of the world, a rather mixed people. They are the result of hundreds if not thousands of years of intermarriage between at least three different peoples - the Silla (Sinla), Koguryeo, and Paekche peoples, and they probably absorbed a certain amount of Parhae (Bohai), Jurchen-Manchu, and even Chinese, Japanese, and Mongols as well. And who knows what ethnolinguistic groups were not even mentioned in the early historical chronicles! I would advise against using the term "homogeneous" to describe any ethnic group... --149.159.2.216 13:17, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Results 1 - 20 of about 707,000 English pages for "korean people"
Results 1 - 20 of about 5,670,000 English pages for koreans

[edit] 3 pictures

The three pictures for the illustration of the article could have some work. Firstly, the images of Koreans should be more direct to their face and secondly, do we really need the Korean president's face on there? It tends to promote him and his position as president. There really is no need to have him there. There are hundreds of other good, quality images of Koreans. Good friend100 02:29, 21 October 2006 (UTC)