Talk:Military Frontier
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[edit] Disparity between old and new
The border areas were separated from their crownlands into the Military Frontier in 1553 and 1578, which was divided into the following districts
- How that can be when the Ottomans ruled the area in that time?
- The emperor of the Habsburg Monarchy established the institution of MF on those dates, and alloted land from the crownlands. The borders shifted over time. --Joy [shallot] 23:11, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Joy, just one note here: you wrote that Military Frontier was reincorporated into Croatia in 1881, but I just checked some historical maps, and I can see there that parts of Military Frontier in eastern Srem never belonged to Croatia before 1881. So, these parts of MF were not reincorporated but incorporated. User:PANONIAN
- In retrospect, the whole text is biased towards the original Krajina, the one in the far west. This is just collateral damage from that basic issue. --Joy [shallot] 21:44, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
I think I addressed this problem now. Please verify. --Joy [shallot] 09:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Subarticles
Also, "It will be larger in the future. Give it a chance" is not valid rationale to keep duplicate stubs around. Once this new content arises, it can be split off, but right now the reader is better served if they see the complete article instead. --Joy [shallot] 21:48, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Ok, I just added more text to the articles about Banat and Slavonian Krajina (I will draw a map of Slavonian Krajina too). There is nothing wrong with the idea to have complete article here, but the 3 sections of Military Frontier deserve to have its own articles, especially if we know that all counties of the Kingdom of Hungary and crownland Croatia-Slavonia have their own articles, and these sections of the Military Frontier were larger than most of that counties. User:PANONIAN
Deleted operation Flash in part of the article about civilian casulties, in it they were not any? To my knowledge there are not any accusations of war crimes in operation Flash. Also changed part of text that is reffering to operation Storm. Haggues accusations aren't about the time period of operation Storm (it lasted only 4 days) but after it. Also word bruttaly is delited (accusations are not made correct, yet) I don't know from were you get the census:) As I know in 1868 46% percent of population were Croats, while 42% were Serbs.... Regarding territorial expansion, if you count state of Ugrin Čak as Slavonia, that is not a new expansion:) That's all Ceha
The book: "Istorija Mađara" (Belgrade, 2002), state that according to 1790 data there were 42,4% Serbs, 35,5% Croats, 9,7% Romanians, 7,5% Hungarians and 4,8% Germans in the Military Frontier. This have nothing to do with 1868 data (many things changed until then). Also, state of Ugrin Čak was counted as "Syrmia", not as "Slavonia" and certainly not as "Croatia". This is a territorial expansion of Croatia we speak about. See the map>
PANONIAN (talk) 22:35, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I don't know about that book. Could you give me a percantage of population in the other parts of Croatia? I had informations about Slavonia(but that was aproximation from bishop of Djakovo). He said that in whole of Slavonia(and Syrmia) were aproximatly one third of ortodox population (letter was daiting from the begining of 18th century). Could you give me more sources from where did the authors get thir data? I would like to try to find conformation for that data... I know that in 12th century Syrmium town of Mitrovica was part of Croatia('vidi onaj bivši jugoslavenski atlas;)', and that name of the whole region comes from that town(a little bit streched but:). As for Ugrin Čak... Do you have more data about him? In meaning what happend with end of his state... In most Croatian atlases Syrmium is shown as part of Slavonia in 15th and begining of the 16th century. All of banovinas (Jajačka, Srebrenička, Mačvanska) are shown as Croato-Hungarian, but whole Syrmium is shown as part of Slavonian Kingdom. Perhaps it has to do something with which nobles have sent their representatives in Slavonian parlament? Don't know exactly. Correct me in which I'm wrong:) Ceha 14:09, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
"I don't know about that book. Could you give me a percantage of population in the other parts of Croatia?"
Here you are (1790 data):
- 1. Military Frontier (the entire one, not only Croatian or Slavonian): 42,4% Serbs, 35,5% Croats, 9,7% Romanians, 7,5% Hungarians, 4,8% Germans
- 2. Civil Croatia: 98% Croats, 1% Serbs
- 3. Civil Slavonia: 46,8% Serbs, 45,7% Croats, 6,8% Hungarians
- 4. There is also data for Hungary Proper and Transylvania, but I do not think that you are interested in this data.
- Civil Slavonia was northern part of today's Slavonia, in wich Serbs lived at western frontier (araund Pakrac) and in eastern frontier (in Syrmia) in both of this areas they were mixed with Croats (or at least there was some Croatian minority in the area). Croatians had majority in Djakovo(if Serbian minority existed there, it was very small) and Pozega(I'm pretty certain of that:) and most of Podravina was also had a Croatian majority. Area around Pakrac was sparsly settled(many hills;) I don't see were 43% of that region population then lived?:) (northern Syrmia could not have had 43% of population of entire region...)
"Could you give me more sources from where did the authors get thir data?"
They have large literature, and they do not say from which source that information is, but they say this: "Ove tabele prikazuju, na osnovu crkvenih popisa, popisa neplemićkog stanovništva i drugih onovremenih popisa, procenjenu etničku i versku strukturu stanovništva Mađarske".
- Yes, that is trouble with it. See that is just one book, whith no clear source of census. I tried to find something of that census on the net, but unfortunetly they can't be found there:( Which was state around Pečuh according to that book? I'm curious, I think that that town had only 20% of Hungarians at that time.
"I know that in 12th century Syrmium town of Mitrovica was part of Croatia('vidi onaj bivši jugoslavenski atlas;)'"
Yes, I have that atlas, and for the year 1300, Mitrovica is there drawn as part of "Croatia and Slavonia". However, what we will then do with these Hungarian maps which show that Mitrovica was part of Proper Hungary and that Croatia and Slavonia were two separate banovinas?
- I think that few years before 14th century Slavonia was introduced as separate banovina than Croatia. As for maps which shows Mitrovica as part of Hungaria proper, that is the same map as in 1100 and 1000? Isn't it a little bit odd, that nothing happened at that border?:) (Borders of all županija's fluctuated)
"As for Ugrin Čak... Do you have more data about him? In meaning what happend with end of his state"
Yes (From the same book "Istorija Mađara"): "Oblasni gospodari su imali svoje privatne vojske, upravu i sudstvo i prisvojili su regalna prava. Oni su bili na putu da postignu potpunu nezavisnost od kraljevske (centralne) vlasti. U tome ih je sprečavala jedino okolnost što su se, pored slabih predstavnika centralne vlasti borili i jedni protiv drugih". And this: "Posle smrti Ugrina Čaka 1311 godine, Karlo (mađarski kralj) je njegovu oblast odmah priključio kraljevskoj teritoriji".
"n most Croatian atlases Syrmium is shown as part of Slavonia in 15th and begining of the 16th century."
Yes, but it is obvious that borders of Slavonia fluctuated, thus the city in one time periods was part of proper Hungary, and in other time periods part of Slavonia. PANONIAN (talk) 18:24, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'totally agree with you. Because of that I think that it would be smart to put in the article that some parts of Syrmia fluctuated between proper Hungary and banovina (or kingdom) of Slavonia
Ceha 11:09, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Now about sentence from the text
The words "returned" or "restored" in the case when we talk about some territories are always POV. The usage of such words tend to imply that only the state or government to which that territory was "returned" or "restored" have "legal right" to rule over that territory, while the previous governments were not "legal" or even "rightfull". I do not see why we should to use such POV here. It is enough to mention to whom ever territory belonged in each time period, but we should not judge who was "rightfull" owner and who was not. Here is one example: what if we use Ottoman POV for the 16th century events and if we write something like this: "The glorious Ottoman armies liberated Hungary and Croatia from infidels". For the concrete case, it is quite enough for us to write that "Croatian and Slavonian Frontiers were incorporated into Croatian-Slavonian crownland" and not to write this POV that this "meant restoration of Croatian authority over the lands that were mostly part of Croatia and Slavonia prior to the Ottoman invasion". The purpose of this sentence is to show that this "restoration" was "rightfull" act, thus, it is POV. PANONIAN (talk) 18:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
You got a point, but this way of writing (as we wrote of terra nihilis, no-man's land) does not hold all of informations. Perhaps if we use reincorporated? Cause incorporation would mean that was for the first time:)
Ceha11:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, but I will not accept such POV constructions that any part of present-day Vojvodina was "returned", "restored" or "reincorporated" into any country or province which is not Vojvodina or Serbia, because such constructions imply the "rightfull" nature of such acts. The proper NPOV words here would be incorporated, included, joined, etc. And word incorporated does not mean that it was incorporated for first time, but that it was incorporated in that time about which we speak. Nothing more, nothing less. PANONIAN (talk) 13:41, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
One more thing, read the sentence carefully: "The decree in which the rest of Croatian and Slavonian Frontiers were incorporated into Croatian-Slavonian crownland". So, it say that the "Frontiers" were incorporated into Croatian-Slavonian crownland, thus this did happen first time in history, since there was no any other Frontier in history which was incorporated into Croatian-Slavonian crownland. PANONIAN (talk) 13:53, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
If you talk about territory in wich Frontier was, most of that territory (south-eastern Syrmia is a posible exclusion) was part of Croatia-Slavonia. If you talk about gouverment in that area, in 1848. ban Josip Jelačić was comanding oficeer of Croatia-Slavonia frontiers (and also ban of Croatia-Slavonia, gouvernor of Dalmatia). So to my opinion reincorporation would be suitable word. If somebody had said that after 1527 (death of Jovan Nenad) Hungarians briefly reincorporated territories of today's Vojvodina, would that be a POV? Before that Vojvodina was part of Hungary... See I think that we differ in the meaning of the word. I'm stressing that RE part which means that once upon a time that territory was part of that contry which has conquered it again. I don't see any naturallity in that:) Words conquered and freed are bias. This one is not. It only stands for durability of something... Incorporation means that that territory became part of something else. That is its meaning. I'd like that the sentence states that that territory was also before that part of that thing (or at least most of that territory). Military frontier was created from territories in Croatia and Slavonia which were under jurisdiction of Croatian ban (although it was smaller than). In the end of its existence it was reincorporated in Croatia-Slavonia. That's not POV:) If you find a better word change it. And it seems to me that you are alergic on atitudes about historical rights:) No one is speaking about that. And Vojvodina's borders fluctuated. Baja triangle was once a part of it. Now is part of Hungary. You cannot use words reincorporeted just in case of Vojvodina... (again I'm not saying that borders will change, Vojvodina is Serbian, and will be in future, but there were times were it was not like that, don't see where is the problem in that. It's just history...) Ceha
I will give the short answer about concrete case: the sentence that area was "reincorporated" into Croatian-Slavonian crownland is not correct because this crownland was formed in 1868 and did not existed before this year. All other similar political creations were only political predecessors of that crownland, but not crownland itself. PANONIAN (talk) 23:36, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
- Crownland Croatia-Slavonia was formed in 1868? Noup:) crownland of Croatia-Slavonia existed long before that. Nobles from Slavonia have participated in work of Croatian parlament (and also directly in work of Hungarian parlament till 1848, when ban Jelačić proclaimed they aren't allowed to do so). Between 1850-1867 was period of Viena's neoapsolutism ('Bahov apsolutizam') when monarhy was centralised, but I don't know that crownland of Croatia-Slavonia was abolished in that period?
Never the less, crownland Croatia-Slavonia is succesor of it's previous crownlands (this sounds funny:) that is Croatia and Slavonia wich existed before that date. But I think that I founded a compromis in forma. It should be NPOV. Ceha
Croatia-Slavonia was formed in 1868. The former political creations were Kingdom of Slavonia and Kingdom of Croatia. Kingdom of Slavonia was thus part of the Kingdom of Croatia not part of one joint crownland. So, it was not same. PANONIAN (talk) 01:53, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- No:) See my upper post. And kingdom (or Crownland) was always known as tripartite kingdom of Croatia, Slavoinia and Dalmatia (although there were not Dalmatian representatives at the parlament). There is no diference between that kingdom(s) (in 1848 Jelačić was also gouvernor of the Frontiers). Different name (and only for 'outer' usage:) It would be as Lajos talked to Vojvodina's Serbs that they are Razi, and not Serb?
Croatian and Slavonian frontiers were made from territories (not all of territory, but in the begining, the name tels it all:) of Croatia and Slavonia. Of wich any succesor territory (you could have paralell with 5th French republic if you wish:) though the previous one as it's sucesor... New lands didn't apeared from nowhere, just from the fishes of Austrian (and also Croatian:) emperor. Don't see what in formulation bugs you. Habsburg rulers had done most of their things (and most of it wich lasted:) as Croatian (and Slavonian, etc...) kings. They ruled Vojvodina as Serbian dukes. What is the problem with it?:) Try to think of the right formulation (if this is a wrong one:). Frontiers were (in the begining) made from Croato-Slavonian territory and Austrian emperor has done that as Croatian king (he couldn't do that if that was not the case). Latter that territory (maybe inlarged in Syrmia, but ultimetly inlarged by territories wich were priviously held by Otomans) was reincorporated in Croatia(or territory which is seen as sucessor to previous state (in Croatian names of the kingdoms didn't change, in deutsch name of the crownland was enlarged)). Explain me were do trouble lies?:)
First of all, the point of this article is not to "establish Croatian historical rights to land", but to write about Habsburg Military Frontier. And of course that I am alergic on atitudes about "historical rights", since "historical rights" are never used in historical but always in POLITICAL content, and since this is not political but historical article I do not see why we should to use this political concept. I do not understand why you insist to write here that Croatia had "historical right" to this land. It is not only POV but also irrelevant for this article, since the purpose of that sentence was only to show what happened with the territory of the Frontier after its abolishment, not to tell as fable stories about "Croatian historical rights", because such stories belong only in the Croatian nationalism article (This nationalism is largelly based on the "historical rights" concept). Second this is, as I already said, that crownland Croatia-Slavonia was formed in 1868 and did not existed before as such. The claim that the Kingdom was "always" known as tripartite kingdom of Croatia, Slavonia and Dalmatia is only the expression of wishes of Croatian nationalists during the history, but not something what always was based on the real events. It is only that Croatian nationalists always wanted to have one "unified" country, and even when that country was not unified, they claimed that according to "their historical right" it is still legally unified and still legally Croatian, no matter what were the REAL political statuses of these lands. That is the whole story about "Croatian historical rights" here. Now other things, if Jelačić was also gouvernor of the Frontiers that does not mean that Frontiers were part of Croatia (the man simply had two jobs at the time). Slavonian Frontier was created from OTTOMAN territories, and the entire Slavonia region was part of the Military Frontier until northern part was not excluded from the Frontier and turned into land known as the Kingdom of Slavonia, which was made a part of the Kingdom of Croatia. In 1849, Kingdom of Slavonia was separated from Croatia, and both, Slavonia and Croatia were completelly separate crownlands until 1868 when they were joined into NEW crownland known as Croatia-Slavonia. Thus, if we could agree that previous kingdoms, banovinas or crownlands were predecessors of Croatia-Slavonia from 1868, I could not agree that they were SAME, because it is obvious that they were not. PANONIAN (talk) 17:10, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
- What is the difference between Croatia-Slavonia before 1868 and after it? Deputies from Slavonia were in parlament of it before that. (If I'm mistaken please warn me, I'm just talking acording the informations I have). After 1867. Habsburg Empire became Austro-Hungaria. There were some changes in status of crownlands, but I don't see why Galicia before 1867. is not the same as Galicia after it. Republics in France didn't had the same territories, yet they were all still France.
Slavonia's frontier was created from territories around Cazma, Krizevci and Koprivnica (that was Slavonia at the time) but later changed the name. Territories in southern Slavonia were previously Ottoman, and before that Slavonian, and before that...:) As for Jelačić, emperor has promisted to join that two jobs in one, but later broke his word. De facto:) Croatia, Slavonia and its frontiers were united under his banate. As for concept of historical rights I think you are mixing two different things (perhaps I'm wrong) . First thing is legitimate right of peoples in one region to chose their destiny, and second is to denied that right to somebody other. Second one is nationalistic, first one is not. Also second one is assosieted with making of new borders, illegall imigration and similar things... It is a rather complex issue regarding rights of somebody to be in some place, and is generally considered very negative. As for Croatian claims on Bosnia, most of them were made on population censuses(opinions that Croats and Bosniaks were the same people), geografy(Bosnian position in the belly of Croatia) and then after that on history rights (this was mostly on territories of Bosnian Krajina, as historicaly it was longest part of Croatia). Military frontier begun as Croatian (and Slavonian) entity, and Habsburg rulers had their gouverment on that territories, only according to theirs titles as Croatian (and Slavonian) kings. Most of that is said in the article? No one didn't spoke of somebody's historical rights. Only that one territory that was once a part of one state (or its predecesor, but to my opinion analogy to predacesors would be Galia-France, large change of population and way of life) and became that once again. Actuly this version of article is not bad, but I think that previous one is be better. Ceha
"What is the difference between Croatia-Slavonia before 1868 and after it?"
Difference is that it did not existed before 1868.
"Deputies from Slavonia were in parlament of it before that."
Not of "it". Deputies of Slavonia were in the parliament of CROATIA, not of Croatia-Slavonia (it is not same). Also, I do not know much about histories of France or Galicia, but I will give you example with Serbia and Kosovo. Since 1945, Kosovo was included into Republic of Serbia. In this case it also would not be correct to write that it was "again" included into republic of Serbia, because Republic of Serbia did not existed before 1945. Its political predecessors to whom Kosovo belonged in history were Kingdom of Serbia, Serbian Despotate, etc, but Kosovo simply never belonged to the REPUBLIC OF SERBIA, as well as Military Frontier never belonged to the CROWNLAND CROATIA-SLAVONIA (as it was in 1868). As for the "historical right" concept about which I speak, I speak about claimed "historical rights" of states to rule "again" over lands which belonged to them in history, no matter what people who live in these lands think about that. The point is that we should to mention in these articles who ever ruled over every land, but if for example, both, Croats and Ottomans ruled over one land in history, we should not to write that only Croats had "right" to rule there, but not the Ottomans, because there was no basic difference between the two. PANONIAN (talk) 20:36, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
