Talk:Mount Ararat

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Removed from article:

However, some pictures of Mount Ararat show the "Ararat anomaly" that some people believe to be Noah's Ark.

Mountains have all sorts of "anomalies"; that there is no reference to suggest why this one should be so bizarrely interpreted, it is irrelevant to the article. --Jerzy(t) 02:43, 2004 May 8 (UTC)

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Mount Ararat is significant to Turkish people (with this I mean all citizens of Turkey not only ethnic Turks) as well, especially the Turkish people of that region. I think it is hard to make a judgement for whom it is more significant.

On another note, could someone provide the a tranliteration of the Armenian and possibly other names. It is nice to have the original script but provides little information, if you cannot read that script.

ato 20:45, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Please read thoroughly: it makes several points, and you won't deduce one from another.

I wince whenever i see an expression like "I mean all citizens of Turkey not only ethnic Turks", because i regard statements like that as complicity after the fact in the Armenian genocide, via the ignoring that state's Big Lie to the effect that "war is hell, but nobody set out to cause the deaths of all those Armenians". And i'd expect, if the question arose, to decide that Ato deserves to be disliked by me.

Nevertheless, IMO Ato has stated the situation very well. I don't like the tone, but the steps advocated are right on the money. Ararat is in Turkey, and in an English 'pedia, the Turkish name should come next after the English one; the reversions to accomplish that were good ones.

In a world where geopolitics was less important than in this one, i'd want to see parts of what is now the east of Turkey in Armenia and in a Kurdish state, and it might make sense for Ararat to end up in the Armenian part; in that case, the Armenian name will then belong before the Turkish in this article.

That does not denigrate the enormous justified resentment that ethnic Amenians are entitled to feel toward the Turkish state. (And it's futile and silly for outsiders to expect their opinions, about what's too much resentment for someone's own good, to be listened to.)

The basis for the resentment may not be ignored. But it is irrelevant to the order of the names.

--Jerzy(t) 05:21, 2004 Jul 1 (UTC)

Re. a transliteration: Արարատ is transliterated precisely as 'Ararat'. [[User:Dmn|Dmn / Դմն ]] 14:22, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents 1 The Ararat Anomaly 2 James Irwin (astronaut) 3 Climbing Ararat 4 fiery 5 POV issues 6 The "other" Mt. Ararat 7 Photos 8 History section 9 Google Maps 10 Caucasus? 11 Revelations - Site of Armageddon? 12 Ancient/Medieval History 13 View of Ararat 14 Pictures

[edit] The Ararat Anomaly

This section seems to unbalance the article; it seems to be concerned more with the obsessions of the American public and the secrecy of its government than anything genuinely to do with this mountain. I'm popping this into a separate article and putting it into "See also". --Tony Sidaway|Talk 00:03, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I agree. I first thought about it before editing it but as I found there some initial info about the Anomaly (w/o explaining or defining it) I decided to edit it there. I agree with your comment. -- Svest 00:20, May 29, 2005 (UTC) ^{Wiki me up™}

I changed the date of which Ararat was lost to the Turks. It did not happen in 1915 but after the Soviet Union intervened in the Armenian-Turkish war of the 1920s. where Armenia was forced to cede the territories.--MarshallBagramyan 01:35, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] James Irwin (astronaut)

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Irwin James Irwin, eight man on the moon, led several expeditions to actually find the remains of the ark on mount ararat, but failed. Should it not be included too here? It might show how much some people with scientific background believe in this.

• Listing expeditions is probably more appropriate to Noah's Ark than to the mtn.

But more importantly, don't confuse science and technology. His advanced training is in engineering, which makes him a consumer science but not a produce of results of the scientific method. Further, his training is unrelated to the areas of science that are relevant to determinations of whether trying to find an ark on Ararat is scientifically sound.
--Jerzy•t 10:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Climbing Ararat

There are not climbing info about Ararat (first climbers, easiest route etc). Ararat is a in important mountain, not only for religious reasons; most of mounts on wikipedia have this kind of info. I do not know about the subject, but please add this information. Gala.martin 18:54, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] fiery

(from the edit summary) "firey" *should* logically be the spelling, but only "fiery" is recognized)... you are right... sorry. gala.martin (what?) 20:12, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV issues

For now I added another Ararat image taken by a German Wikipedian. I'll make some edits to this article in the future -when I have time- to reduce the Armenian POV in the Symbolism section. Also this piece of information is wrong:

"...but the Turkish government has closed off the northwestern area of the mountain since the early 1990s due to military conflicts with Kurdish rebels."

Climbing is allowed as long as you obtain permission.

Regards.--Kagan the Barbarian 11:45, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "other" Mt. Ararat

What we now call Mt. Ararat was named so only about 1,000 years ago. As far as Mt. Ararat and the Biblical tale of the Ark is concerned, it should be pointed out that the mountain that the Ark supposedly landed on is a different mountain altogether.

Can you provide any reference for this claim? Dmn € Դմն 19:06, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

See the entry for Mountains of Ararat. --Ssilvers 18:09, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Photos

Both photos of Ararat from Yerevan have their merits. I am sorry that Adkagansu does not agree but I have done what he has told me to do.

I agree with keeping both photos. They don't retract from the article, only improves it. Hence they should stay. Dmn € Դմն 14:59, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree as well. I fixed the lighting on the second one, what does everyone think? --Khoikhoi 01:52, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I think you have made it better. Thanks. Viewfinder 02:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

I like the photos as well but the photos are almost the same; one is over the city, other looks like same view with the city edited out. The one without the city is a cake but the one with the city is cake with delicious fruits on it. If you have a very old photo, add it; if you have a photo from the mountain itself then add it otherwise I think 1 photo from Yerevan and 1 from the otherside Dogu Beyazıt is enough. --Kagan the Barbarian 07:24, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Viewfinder.--Moosh88 01:06, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The Avitya photo shows the mountain significantly more clearly. That is what is good about it. But the other one, showing the city, should stay too. Perhaps if a photograph from over the city showing the mountain on a clearer day were found, then a case could be made for it replacing both. Viewfinder 10:27, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

What about this [1]

Now that's what I call angle. But I couldn't add it here, it is from German Wikipedia, how can we put it here?--Kagan the Barbarian 13:46, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Add it if you like, but it's not a view from over the city or on a clearer day so it should not be a reason to delete the existing photographs. Viewfinder 16:33, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

This article is about the mountain, not any city. It should definitely replace one of the ones from Yerevan. It is a beatiful photo. I couldn't figure out how to add it, it is from German Wikipedia and I don't have much time right now. If anybody knows, please do.--Kagan the Barbarian16:03, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Nice, now the article looks like a photo gallery of Mt Ararat. So in case the reader doesn't quite get the idea in the first 4 photographs, he'll definitely get it on the 5th.--Kagan the Barbarian 08:22, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History section

Instead of adding just Armenian POV information, as El_C suggested its history section should be expanded. And of course the information, not just Armenian perspective of things. I am asking this part to be written by a neutral user if possible.--Kagan the Barbarian 07:18, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

What about this, which seems to me to be hard and neutral fact: In earlier times, Ararat was located in what is historically and geographically regarded as part of Armenia, but for several centuries it was included within the Turkish Ottoman empire. It was part of the Karse and Ardahan area occupied by Russia in 1878. In 1918, in the aftermath of World War One, the area became part of an independent Armenia, but this was short lived. Following the Treaty of Kars in 1923, the area was divided up between Turkey and the USSR, and the new border, which became internationally recognised, placed Ararat on the Turkish side. But the new independent Armenia that emerged following the breakup of the USSR in 1991 is not happy about the location of this border.

Let's have some comments on the above here before we edit the main article, where we do not need a new front in the edit war. Viewfinder 16:56, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

The above text seems neutral enough for me, if there is no objections, then you, me or someone else can add it. Let's give people two days to respond, and if there is no major objections, it should be added to the article.--Moosh88 23:42, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Not bad but requires re-wording in my opinion, some sentences are weak. Regards and thanks for the effort.--Kagan the Barbarian 12:48, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I might change "is not happy about" to "does not recognise" (as in Treaty of Kars). Otherwise I do not see how I can strengthen the wording, but then I am not a professional writer. Perhaps you or others can suggest some alternative wording. Still, we seem to have agreement about the general substance. Viewfinder 13:09, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

There having been no further comment, I am proceeding to add the above to the Histoy section in the main article. Wording improvements and the addition of more fact or NPOV will be welcome. Viewfinder 03:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google Maps

Can anyone put up a Google Maps link? Varun Rajendran

Done. [2]. --Khoikhoi 01:09, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Caucasus?

Is Ararat really in the Caucasus range? It looks a little far to the south to me. --345Kai 04:49, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Revelations - Site of Armageddon?

In addition to the Genesis reference, isn't there something in Revelations that is usually taken to refer to Ararat as the site for armageddon? --Ssilvers 18:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient/Medieval History

Thanks Eupator. I think you have improved this a great deal, adding a lot of useful info to the ancient history. -- Ssilvers 16:11, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] View of Ararat

Someone removed the statement that read: "Ararat dominates the skyline of Armenia's capital Yerevan." Why? I think it is significant that the mountain is so visible from the nearest capital city. By the way, what is the exact distance from downtown Yerevan? Ssilvers 18:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you'll find that the sentence was moved not deleted. It's in the symbolism section along with other text on Armenia. Cheers, --Plumbago 19:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. Still, I left a few words in the intro about the view, which I think is pretty remarkable: Most mountains peak (no pun intended) out of a mountain range. But Masis and Sis rise majestically from the surrounding plain with nothing but sky behind them. Very impressive (and I'm a skiier). Too bad there's quite a bit of smog. I was in Yerevan 4 or 5 years ago. Ssilvers 20:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I made the move :) I don't think that sentence belongs to the description or etymology of Ararat. There's a whole section about it (how it can be seen from Yerevan and how it affected people etc.) I'm sure someone will try to add smth. like "it's all over Dogubeyazid" to it. I think it should go to Symbolism. Can you take care of it? DeliDumrul 04:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did it. Ssilvers 05:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! DeliDumrul 05:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures

I noticed two pictures called "Ararat from Yerevan" in the article. Could someone remove one of them and put a picture taken in Turkey? I think one picture from Yerevan is more than enough. Two pictures make the article look biased. Thanks.

By all means add another from Turkey to redress the bias, but both the Yerevan photos have their merits and Yerevan is a well known viewpoint. Viewfinder 03:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)