Talk:PAL

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	This article is within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Filmmaking, an attempt to better organize information in articles related to filmmaking. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the assessment scale.

Contents 1 Countries 2 Encoding 3 Acronyms 4 Hong Kong and China 5 Date of Introduction 6 PAL60 7 en_US vs en_GB 8 Resolution chart 9 Spelling; two week deadline 10 Television resolution 11 question 12 compatibility between UK (PAL I ) AND Belgium (Pal B,G,) 13 PAL speed-up 13.1 How will PAL to NTSC converter correct the effect? 13.2 Speed up vs artifacts 14 Compatibility Between USA (NTSC) and Turkey(PAL..) 15 Compatibility Between USA (NTSC) and Turkey(PAL..) 16 Move list of countries to a separate article? 17 Illustrations

[edit] Countries

I added Greece as a PAL country. Although many sources still point it as a SECAM country, it has actually been dual-standard for some time, while today almost all TV stations and TV sets are designed for PAL operation and dual-standard TV sets are becoming rare, but I don't have the exact date of the transition... EpiVictor 10:07, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I added Romania under PAL B/D category. I removed Sardinia because the idea of a list with countries and territories is to list territories, when there is no nation-wide standard (which is not the case for Italy).

[edit] Encoding

The statement that PAL has 625 lines per frame is incorrect. Yes, the standard dictates 625 lines but only 576 lines are viewable, the rest being used for information such as sync data and captioning. PAL DVDs are MPEG-2, not PAL standard. The PAL classification merely indicates they have 576 lines at 25fps, and as such aren't 625 lines at all. Defsac 10:05, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

The introduction says "SECAM (which is very similar to PAL...)", while the first sentence under Technical Details says "The basics of PAL and the NTSC system are quite similar; the SECAM system, on the other hand, is quite different from both of the others." This is contradictory and should be made consistent. I don't know enough about the technical details to make a proper correction. --Ghewgill 13:06, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

It stems from the confusion of colour standards and the informal usage of the term "PAL" to describe a 625/50 signal, which is quite widespread but, strictly speaking, wrong. Some authors aren't quite consistent about this. Of couse, SECAM colour encoding - usually! - rides on a 625/25 signal, as PAL does - usually. From this point of view they are "similar". But the actual colour encoding - which is what PAL and SECAM are really about - are completely different. In this respect, PAL is much more similar to NTSC. Someone feels to correct the article accordingly? Regards Anorak2 13:22, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Done. Anorak2 12:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Acronyms

Should any one interested putting something like this?

NTSC: Never Twice Same Color PAL: Perfection At Last

I heard this from an old friend once working in thompson. So it should be related information :)

(In the old Commodore Amiga days we said: PAL = pay additional luxury ;-)

Hey guys,

I ran accross the article selling the innovation: french and german color tv devices in the 1960s by patrick fridenson [[1]]

that's what it says on the PAL and SECAM: The first movers were Americans, because America represented the largest potential marketf or color TV. They consisted on one side of RCA and on the other of a group of firms working with the TV network CBS. For the sake of production costs and viewers' interests, RCA called for a unified system, which was reached in 1953 by a committee which gathered representatives of some twenty companies and labs and was named NTSC (National Television System Committee). However, this system had many practical drawbacks, and it was soon nicknamed "Never The Same Color". The challengers were the Frencha nd the Germans. They invented ways to correct the color variations of NTSC. The paradox is that although Radio Industrie and Telefunken, the French and German companies which earlier had separately developed black and white TV devices, were now working together on color TV, they finally gave birth to two different devices: the French SECAM (its French nickname was "Supreme Effort Against America") and the German PAL (called by the French "German Provocation").

Is it worth putting that in the articles about PAL and SECAM.

[edit] Hong Kong and China

Hong Kong uses "PAL-I" and China uses "PAL-D". I have never heard of "PAL-CN". -Hello World! 16:32, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed PAL-I that's used in both Hong Kong and Macau. -Broccoli 22:33, August 20, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Introduction

The article claims PAL was launched in 1967. BBC Two in the UK started broadcasting monochrome 625-line video in 1964. It later went to full-colour PAL (without breaking the old system). Do the monochrome broadcasts qualify as 'PAL', and shouldn't this be mentioned?

No they don't. Monochrome 625/50 is not PAL, the term was unknown before the introduction of colour. Incidentally, the UK and France were latecomers to that standard. Most of mainland Europe has been broadcasting 626/50 since 1950 or thereabout. Anorak2 13:27, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

As a point of interest, PAL colour was under test by the BBC throughout 1965. I believe these tests were made on a 'spare' uhf frequency [which would nowadays be used for BBC-1, or ITV-1]. Colour was not introduced on BBC-2, until it had been fully tested, and technical conditions observed. Also, a b/w transmission is colourless, so can be received on any television set, provided it meets the transmission system [e.g. B/G, I etc.] requirements. (RM21 00:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] PAL60

According to this page: http://www.cube-europe.com/special.php?sid=techfaq , PAL60 runs at the standard PAL resolution, not at the lower NTSC one. Is this correct, or is this mode specific to the GameCube?

PAL-60 from regular VCRs or DVD players outputs 525 scan lines at 30 frames/60 half-frames per second, and only converts the colour to PAL at 4.43 MHz. The whole point of this signal is to enable VCRs to play NTSC to PAL TVs, but cheaply. It relies on the fact that most TVs can be persuaded to sync to almost any resolution and frame rate, but they need the colour in their native system anyway. Changing the original resolution before outputting the image would defeat the whole "cheapo" point of PAL-60, as it would involve expensive circuitry. The downside is that you get a non-standard signal that no other device can record. I don't know what the GameCube does (the page appears to be gone), but if it doesn't give a 525/60/PAL signal it's not PAL-60 "as we know it". Anorak2 13:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] en_US vs en_GB

Both American and British spellings of "color"/"colour" are used. Might as well pick one and stick with it for the entire article. - Shadowhillway 23:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy is to attempt to retain consistency with whichever version of English was used first... unfortunately, I can't tell which, because for some reason although the history lists the "earliest" version (circa 2001), there are clearly versions before that (click 'previous revision' on the claimed earliest version). And it's mixed back then.

Fourohfour 09:42, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

How about since PAL is the European/global video standard that British spelling be used? But then should NTSC be spelled out "Never Twice the Same Color" regardless of which article it's in because NTSC is American?

Shadowhillway 20:16, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

Your logic seems sound, but I'm sure someone could come up with a good counter-case if they were so inclined. Best stick to policy if someone can figure out how to view the earliest versions of the article; otherwise, consistency is still better than nothing.

Fourohfour 23:50, 20 September 2005 (UTC)

PAL is of European origin. I feel that British or Irish English should be used. --Evice 02:14, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

May as well be consistent; unless someone can show that the first version used US English, I vote we should just go with Commonwealth English then. Fourohfour 11:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

What's the difference between British and Irish spelling of "colour"? :> Anorak2 13:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Resolution chart

The chart of resolution and high-def info at the bottom makes no sense to the uninitiated.

[edit] Spelling; two week deadline

Unless anyone has any objections, let's settle on a consistent spelling system; this appears to be the earliest version in the list (although for some reason you can select an "older" version, its date is actually later, so this is probably a bug somewhere).

It uses a mix of UK and US spellings. Since the "Wikipedia is American" argument doesn't wash (the contributors are a mix, and Wikipedia's own policy is that the earlier spelling is used- not useful in this case as original article had a mix), let's vote on this once and for all, and have it over by the New Year.

Votes:-

• UK (commonwealth) spelling. Fourohfour 22:56, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
• PAL is a European system (mostly German actually) but US use NTSC so it should use the UK spelling, consistently. David | Talk 13:52, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't see why there has to be consistent spelling in the first place. Tolerance dictates that we don't marginalize any type of English. dsandlund 11:51, February 12 2006 (CET)

[edit] Television resolution

The diagram at the end of this article suggests that NTSC is 640x480 and PAL is 720x576. I find this to be quite inaccurate. DV is 720x480 for NTSC and 720x576 for PAL.

dsandlund 09:26, February 12 2006 (CET)

Actually the inclusion of the diagram makes no sense at all in the context of this article. The terms "PAL" and "NTSC" have more than one meaning. One is an informal usage for TV resolutions, but that is not what the text is about, which it clarifies in the first paragraph. This article is about PAL the colour television system independent of resolution questions.

Concerning the diagram, it is not wrong but perhaps misleading as it claims pixel counts for television signals. But analogue TV signals have no pixels. They have horizontal scan lines, but along each line the signal is continuous. So-called "PAL" signals have 625 scan lines, 50 of which are black, leaving 575 lines with picture content (usuually digitised as 576). So-called "NTSC" signals have 525 lines, 45 of which are black, leaving 480 visible. Pixels only come into play when you decide to digitise the signal. The number of columns you choose is arbitrary, as long as they are enough to satisfy the sampling theorem. 720 and 768 columns are values that are often chosen and actually standardises for some digital video formats, but neither is "more correct" than the other. Anorak2 11:13, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I know how the analog systems work. My objection was with the diagram and how it suggests a considerably greater difference in resolution between PAL and NTSC than what is true. Having a diagram as a guide for comparing formats is quite relevant imo, you just need to calculate it in a fair way. dsandlund 03:13, February 13 2006 (CET)

[edit] question

will a NTSC DVD player work with a PAL television and vice-versa?

In the general case,. An NTSC player outputs an NTSC signal which the PAL TV will not "understand", and vice versa. At best you get a black&white picture, possibly rolling and distorted.

However, since the 1990s most TVs sold in PAL countries are multi-standard to varying degrees. Most will be able to accept NTSC signals as input. Likewhise, DVD players sold in PAL markets are usually multi-standard. With most of these, you can even select what signal format they should output.

The reverse is not necessarily true for TVs and DVD players sold in NTSC markets. Anorak2 12:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] compatibility between UK (PAL I ) AND Belgium (Pal B,G,)

Hello,

I hope somebody can help me! I am moving from the UK to live in Brussels/Belgium. I am considering buying a TV in the UK to take with me, but have learnt that they may not be compatible. Please can you advise if a PAL-I TV will work fully in Belgium,thanks,Eroonie.

No, it won't. Unless it's a PAL B/G/I multistandard tv. MrTroy 09:05, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

No it won't, you won't get sound as the audio frequency is in a different place; this is true for both the mono as well as stereo (NICAM) versions. Also Belgium has VHF transmitters which a UK set can't pick up. Incidentally most of Belgium has cable, but there the same is true. There are probably some multi standard sets with an "all Europe" tuner, but if you don't know what to look out for, chances are you'll buy the wrong set.

Incidentally Belgium is migrating to digital terrestrial television (DVB-T) for which you'll need a set-top box; this too is best bought in Belgium, as UK ones might not tune some of the channels (otherwhise they're OK). Anorak2 11:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

A few UK set-top boxes may work (but no promises!!) in Europe (B/G is used in most of Belgium, Netherlands, Germany etc.). The box would be able to receive the input OK, but may only be able to convert the sound output if it's multi-standard. Some makes, such as SAGEM are multi-standard, but check before you buy. Also, maplin.co.uk sell some multi-standard handheld tv's. Better still, get a continental tv/box. (RM21 00:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC))

[edit] PAL speed-up

[edit] How will PAL to NTSC converter correct the effect?

Which effect is refered to in the paragraph where it is said that "hardware is also available to correct this effect? Is it about the speed up effect or the telecine judder effect? Either way it should be said more accurately what can be done with that hardware. I don't see how converting signal from PAL to NTSC would fix the speed up effect. It might be that the whole paragraph should be removed. It seems like a misplaced advertisement. 81.197.16.160 05:20, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

A PAL to NTSC converter cannot correct the speed up after it has been applied. The converted video will show it too. A theoretical hardware solution would be to play the video at 24fps (i.e. non-standard, would require a modified VCR) and apply a realtime frame conversion to 25fps. That would result in a video at proper speed, but probably with some bad judder effects (which is the main reason why it's not done). Tenlab company sells no such thing, just regular standards converters. So IMHO the paragraph should be removed. Anorak2 16:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Speed up vs artifacts

I changed the "many" to "some" when discussing whether or not movie enthusiasts prefer speed up to artifacts. "Many" introduces a value assessment that is difficult for this encyclopedia to claim. The sources are not entirely encyclopedic and, given that they are both from web sites apparently hosted in PAL countries, they are more likely to share the same criticisms of artifacts. Additionally, to attempt to place further impact on the statement, "movie enthusiast" would have to be defined. This is likewise a difficult task given the wide range of self-described enthusiasts, enthusiasts who refuse to associate with certain others, etc. -user:rasd

I agree, as sources for "many" those aren't encyclopedic - you would need a research indicating there are many people believing PAL is better. However, for "some", those are perfectly good sources.

And of course (almost) only people in PAL areas prefer PAL - the complete lack of compatibility prevents people in NTSC countries to playback PAL material. Most PAL equipment, on the other hand, is compatible with NTSC - so the preference of PAL people for PAL isn't based on incompatibility with NTSC. MrTroy 15:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compatibility Between USA (NTSC) and Turkey(PAL..)

Compatibility Between USA (NTSC) and Turkey(PAL..)--68.78.69.173 02:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Compatibility Between USA (NTSC) and Turkey(PAL..)

Somebody help me please! I'm about to buy a new JVC hardrive camcorder in United States,and I want to learn that it works in Turkey which is in Europe and using PAL...it's written NTSC,as the analog video format on the camcorder..Do I have some problems about that,should I buy it or what I'm going to do???

No they're completely incompatible. Don't import NTSC equipment into the PAL world or vice versa, you'll have problems either way. Anorak2 10:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move list of countries to a separate article?

I think the "PAL#Countries and territories that use PAL B, G, D or K" section is getting long and cumbersome, and should be moved to a separate article. Ideas?

I agree... "List of countries and territories that use PAL"... does that sound right? --StuartBrady (Talk) 03:24, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illustrations

I was wondering if an illustration of a phase error would improve the article... So I've knocked up two images [2][3], which show normal and alternated phase respectively, with a 20 degree phase error. Any thoughts on these? --StuartBrady (Talk) 03:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)