Talk:Squadron Supreme
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[edit] Squadron Sinister
Someone should mention the Squadron Sinister, which the Squadron Supreme was based on, and also the fact that, at about the same time the Squadron Sinister appeared in the Avengers comic, a group of characters based on Marvel Comics characters appeared in the Justice League of America comic (issue #87). Thor, Yellowjacket, Scarlet Witch, & Quicksilver became Wandjina, Blue Jay, Silver Sorceress, & Jack B. Quick, respectively. This, of course, was no coincidence -- it was an "unofficial crossover" coordinated by the writers of both comics. Mark Gruenwald didn't create the concept of Squadron Supreme -- he merely adapted it from the Squadron Sinister. --Kaijan 15:33, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)
[edit] Institute of Evil
It always seemed to me that Gruenwald based the Institute of Evil on not only enemies of the DC heroes but those chacters in combination, either look, characteristics, or powers, with the X-Men. I haven't figured it all out, just remember thinking that when I was reading it the first time. Thought the name "Institute" was a clue. Some are obvious (see Ape-X); some seem like a stretch. This is my best guess:
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- Gorilla Grodd + Professor X = Ape-X;
- Sinestro + Storm = Quagmire;
- Lex Luther + Morph = Shape;
- Dr. Polaris + Banshee = Dr. Decibel;
- Parasite + Rogue = Lamprey;
- Dr. Alchemy + Shadow Cat = Foxfire (a chemical reaction by touch).
But it doesn't stop there:
-
- Catwoman + Wolverine = Mink(remember the claws);
- Penguin + Beast (think bounce) = Pinball;
- Joker + Iceman = Remnant.
Maybe it even goes to the new SS members:
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- Captain Cold + Sunfire = Thermite;
- Grundy + Tbird = Red Stone;
- Poison Ivy + Havok = Haywire;
- Turtle + Gambit = Inertia;
- Mirror Master + Marvel Girl = MoonGlow.
-Dex __________________________________________________________________________
- Nighthawk's redeemers always struck me as being based on the Outsiders:
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- Redstone = Geo-Force
- Inertia = Halo
- Moonglow = Looker
- Thermite = Metamorpho (not in powers, but in not-quite-human appearance)
- Haywire = Black Lightning
- Though they are also a mostly-good match for the original X-Men:
-
- Redstone = Beast
- Thermite = Cyclops
- Inertia = Marvel Girl
- Haywire = Iceman
- Moonglow = Angel (? well, she can fly)
- Nighthawk's villains were based on Batman's villains:
-
- Remnant = Joker
- Mink = Catwoman (she's used claws in the past)
- Pinball = Penguin
- They're not as deadly as Batman's foes, but then Nighthawk is a lot less grim than Batman. I think putting Beast and Iceman in there is quite a stretch.
- I think reading too much into this is a mistake, since I think Gruenwald came up with a number of these characters out of whole cloth. After all, it's not like Tom Thumb resembles The Atom very much! -mhr 23:29, 13 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- i have allways thought that Redstone was based lossely on the Marvel supervillan Juggernaught. i allways thought that the name redstone, was a refference to the gem that powered cain Marko. also both have simular superpowers: superhuman strengh that was gained through mystical means. they also have simular look apearances and bellow average inteligence. --Dr noire 21:00, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Squadron Characters
You make some interesting points; however, in the absence of anything concrete, I still believe the characters were made from combinations of other characters. The most obvious is Ape-X: Super intelligent Gorilla mixed with wheelchaired telekenesis user with "X" as a significant part of his name.
I believe you are correct that the Outsiders were probably the basis for the redeemers. This seems especially likely given the Batman (Nighthawk) relationship. The timing is right too. I think they came out in about 1983. Never read the outsiders series, and it has been about 10 years since I read the SS's mini-series, so I am not sure what attributes were taken from them or what they were mixed with. Without this information, I have a difficult time seeing the correlation between Haywire and Black Lightning, the only outsider I am familar with. Neither the powers nor the look of the character seem similar. Inasmuch as the Institute was based on Xavier's School it seems correct that other groups in the mini-series would be based on other "real" comic teams.
I don't see the connection between the original X-men alone and the Redeemers. I could maybe agree on Iceman/Haywire as they both shoot their "weapon" from their hands. I suppose you could argue that both the Beast and Redstone are the strongman of their respective groups but that is a relative characteristic and I was focusing on absolute characteristics. Plus I think that comparison has a magnitude problem; Beast could lift between 500-1000lb before he turned blue and furry, while Redstone took out a blinded Hyperion with a couple of punchs. What is the common thread between Marvel Girl and Inertia be other that they are both female? I am equally unsure of the commonality between Cyclops and Thermite - the ability to shoot ruby energy beams for the eyes and the ability to fire either cold or heat "beams" from the hands? Finally, Moonglow (not Arcania in Moonglow guise) could not fly. All of her abilities were based on illusion.
No doubt Mink, Remnant, and Pinball were based on Catwoman, Penguin, and the Joker. I just still believe they were blended with additional characters. Yes, I did make some guesses that were quite a stretch. That is why I prefaced my selections with an acknowledgement of that ("...seems like a stretch"). I chose Wolverine because of the type of claws - not at the fingers like Catwoman but three from the back of the hand/wrist area - and, as I hear from a couple of friends that used to work at a mink ranch, mink are vicious little guys. However, your point about the more cheerful nature of Nighthawk is well taken.
Iceman was chosen because of the thousand and one uses for his ice. The particular idea came to me when Nighthawk and his crew use Remnant's fabic as a magic carpet to ride on [although this may have actually been in Cap. America as I seem to recalled they appeared in his mag trying to recruit]. Just reminded me of Iceman and the way he shuttles everyone around on his ice. If you just look to the Joker alone, the only simularity that I remember is that they are both tall, lanky guys with exotic colored hair. I think Gruenwald's homage, while not just a mere copy, was too perfect for such a weak link.
Admitedly, linking the Penguin and Beast to Pinball is not as strong. I chose Beast because during the mini-series he was at the height of his bouncing, blue tigar phase. Since Pinball used physical attacks based on bouncing into the opponent, I connected the two. However, this guess was made in trying to keep with the premise that the Penguin was combined with a member of the X-men. If there was no pattern, clearly, he is more like Bouncing Boy from the Legion of Super-Heroes.
Finally, while I agree that reading too much into something is bad (by definition), I have to disagree that Gruenwald created any of the characters in the mini-series out of whole cloth. Okay, maybe the Rustler and Bollux (or was it Bollix). Never really thought about them. Lamprey doesn't look like Parasite either but the conection is clear. The idiom "cut [or made]of whole cloth" came from a loomed cloth designation and was used to mean something in its entirety. Because of scarity, people had to reuse fabic a great deal making a garment made from whole cloth was a luxury. In the 19th century the phrase began to be accepted as something utterly without foundation in fact: completely fictitious. In this sense of the word, you are correct but then every comic book would be cut from whole cloth as they are completely fictitious (except maybe things like the Avengers Letterman issue). A more modern use of the phrase is to mean ex nihilo - from nothing. This indicates that the maker of the subject had no model or earlier edition upon which to base it. This, I believe, was the meaning that you intended. Clearly, Tom Thumb was based on the Atom and, therefore, was not create ex nihilo. Although the Atom was more diminutive, the small crimefighter/super scientist model is there.
I am not suggesting that Gruenwald didn't add his own flare in creating something new but he did it, in the mini-series, based on a previous model. You don't get Quagmire by just mixing Sinestro's power with Storm's Mohawk look. He just took that as his model.
A further argument for this is to look at the mini-series as a whole. It seems odd that a story teller would go to the trouble of developing a charactor as an homage to 11 members of of the JLA and create one whole cloth character. Especially, when he went on to create homage characters for 11 more villians/anti-heroes. As far as I can tell, there were no whole cloth characters in the mini-series and that is exactly why it was such a good story-telling vehicle for Gruenwald.
-Dex
you're wrong about some of the characters. How is Quagmire, a person who shoots a tar like substance, later revealed to be the Darkforce in a set that involved heroes fighting others covered in black matter, similar to Goldface and Sinestro? Foxfire based on starfire? impossible. two different powers. Haywire fires strands of malleable but strong wire. How is he similar to black lightning? Thermite's powers are based in fire not the elements like Metamorpho. how is pinball based on the penquin? one has a suit in which he grows in size, the other is a bon vivant criminal.
pretty much all of those odd combinations dex came up with is utterly wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.90.198.194 (talk • contribs) 03:35, 9 August 2005.
[edit] The Utopia Project
Looking for a detall story Synopsis. Issues by issues? --Brown Shoes22 16:49, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Going Overboard With DC Connections
Folks, let's bear in mind there is no mandate that every character in the Squadron universe has to be connected to a DC character. Mark Gruenwald had ambitions greater than paying homage to the Justice League like those who previously wrote Squadron stories, so many of the new characters he introduced are not linked to any particular DC hero or villain. Some of the connections drawn are obvious (Skymax the skrull and Martian Manhunter) while many others are tenative at best. For instance, other than being overweight, what is the similarity between Pinball and Penguin? Thematically, they're very different. How can Redstone be based on Geo-Force, when there's no resemblance in name or appearance, nor does Redstone have Geo-Force's gravity or thermal powers (and Geo-Force is not invulnerable or even bulletproof)? The similarities really aren't there, and that's not even getting us into really off-the-wall associations like basing Haywire on Black Lightning (???). It's all well and good to harbor your own theories about Gruenwald's inspirations, but do highly speculative correlations really belong in an encyclopedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steveg99 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 26 February 2006.
