User talk:Lar

Here about accountability? see my accountability page.

This is a Wikipedia user talk page. If you find this page on any site other than Wikipedia, you are viewing a mirror site. Be aware that the page may be outdated, and that the user this page belongs to may have no personal affiliation with any site other than Wikipedia itself. The original page is located at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lar.

My real name is Larry Pieniazek and I like LEGO(r) Brand building elements. Feel free to mail me with comments or concerns. I will archive this page if/when there is a need but will not delete comments. I reserve the right to refactor by moving comments under headings, adding headings, and so forth but will never change comment order in a way that changes meaning.

Note: I archive off RfA thank yous separately, I think they're neat!

[edit] Archives

[edit] Re: my RfA

Hi Lar. I just wanted to thank you for your support in my request for adminship, even though it didn't come in the form of a support "vote". (You also deserve still more thanks for your tireless on and regarding WP:SRNC.)

As with any person in any community, there are editors on Wikipedia whose opinion I respect, and those whose opinion I unfortunately I do not. Yours I do. Freakofnurture's I do not. Unfortunately, this puts me in a bit of a bind, since the two of you seem to have the same opinion. Thus I was hoping you could help me out so that I could better myself as an editor -- regardless of whether or not I go through a third RfA somewhere down the line.

I was wondering specifically which of the incidents Freakofnurture cited give you a bad feeling, and what I can do to solve those fears -- whether it's in direct response to those incidents, or in general. Any coaching you're willing to provide would be much appreciated. -- NORTH ^talk 14:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. tough question. Have you done the Esperanza coaching thing? I'm not sure I can give a crisp "don't do this" answer. I just looked at the links Freak gave and while he felt you were doing the wrong htings the wrong way, I was more like you were doing the right things the wrong way. There's something about your manner in SRNC that comes off as being a bit, ok, I dunno. edgy. There was one hardass there, me, everyone else needed to be mellower than usual... it's almost if you're right, don't be strident about it. Dunno if that helps or not. I try (not always perfectly, mind you!) to not be snippy, or harsh, to use soft words and to be civil. Hope it helps a little. ++Lar: t/c 15:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trentino-South Tyrol: Why I can not contribute at the moment / Ignoring the Law / NPOV

Hi,

After some time not looking at the double naming issue anymore (it hurt toooo much) I heard that you now try to mediate. I am happy to hear that someone at least tries it.

I just wanted to let you know why I can not contribute to the South-Tyrol pages for now:

• I have many italian friends
• I love italy and the italians
• I am italian
• I live in a place in Italy where nearly everyone speaks german and the name of the place was "italianised" by force, but no one uses the invented italian name.

The main reason for the issue hurting me soo much is for comments from people who don't know anything about my home place and then saying things like "it's in italy, so the name has to be italian". The truth is not so simple. And it hurts if people change reality by making things simple.

The fact is, that South Tyrol is protected by (italian)law from italians trying to take away our german. German and Italian has equal rights in South Tyrol. By law.

The bigges problem is: You can not just take a mojority vote in Wikipedia and uses that as an excuse to ignore law. The law is here to protect minorities. How do you protect a minority in a majority vote where you have 50(?) Million italians against 200.000 german speaking South Tyroleans? There is no way that this minority can survive in Wikipedia if you do everything by mojority votings.

This whole issue is so frustrating, because added to being a minority, the English of the South Tyroleans is really bad, because we learn it as third or fourth language (first we HAVE to learn german, then italian, some also ladin, and only in the end a little bit english). How can we fight for our rights in the english Wikipedia if the italians have such a big majority and so simple arguments.

And additionally my granfather was tortured by italians and died in prison because he fighted for the right that the german speakers have the same rights as the italian speakers in South Tyrol. Maybe you can understand that people who want to eliminate the german names in South Tyrol really upset me personally, and I can not discuss with people who just say "it's italy, so use italian". This is like torturing me (and 200.000 other people).

What I want to say: Please understand that I can not contribute, but please don't forget that it is about a weak minority being suppressed by a strong big majority. Do you want to support this behaviour against italian law?

Should Wikipedia follow the law?

Is NPOV not also bound to follow the law and not change it by a simple majority vote?

Thanks for your time and efforts, Fantasy 10:09, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. The more I dig into this the more tangled it gets. I feel for you and your family. But the problem is that Wikipedia is primarily concerned with presenting information in an unbiased way. Getting involved in long standing disputes, or presenting something as the truth, or taking sides, is not what WP can, or should be doing. The names chosen to be used by WP should reflect what makes the most sense for those most likely to look for the information. What that means, I am not sure yet. This clearly is going to take a while to work through. ++Lar: t/c 11:48, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the "...taking sides, is not what WP can, or should be doing." is exactly what I was trying to tell you. Every place in South Tyrol has two names by law. If you choose one you take side (against NPOV). If you take both names (e.g. Bolzano-Bozen) you use NPOV. Any other solution is taking sides, and that is what I think we should avoid. At least on that we agree: No taking side, NPOV stands above all ;-) Fantasy 16:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

The problem I have here is that it seems almost "crazy" to think that a name itself is a source of this much friction. Even with your explanation... so must ponder. ++Lar: t/c 23:11, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me offer an explanation. My family is from "over the hill" in Trentino, and even though I've been born and raised in the US -- I can understand Fantasy's feelings. Imagine these villages are often 500 to 2000 people, and have families that have lived there for literally centuries. These towns themselves are like a family. It may seem somewhat abstract, but this is the case. Then imagine that someone shows up and forcibly tries to rename the village, etc. This is like a stab in the heart. I think it may be difficult for us to understand in the US. Either because we are all here in this melting pot recently, or because someone hasn't shown up and said New York is now 24HourTallBuildingTown. :-) It absolutely breaks my heart to hear this story of Fantasy's grandfather. For one, I have so much emotion for this region, the land, and its people. To hear of someone who lost -anyone- here is just obscene. I never got to meet one of my grandfathers because of the aftermath of the b.s. we call World War II, so this hits hard. Anyway, I really hope when Fantasy says "italians trying to take away our german", this is a description of the relatively few years of the Fascist dictatorship and doesn't reflect anything now. As far as I know this is a time that has past. The same thing happened to the Italians at one point, which we should also remember. Regardless, my opinion still is that this region (as many others) has been romanized, germanized, italianized, etc., etc. Romans came in and pushed around the original people. Germans/Austrians came in and pushed those Romans. Italians came into German villages such as Fantasy's and did the same junk. But in the end the majority of people in the region have been there for centuries, just under different rulers. The language they speak afterall is just that, a language. I come from an "Italian" area, but no one will tell me that people like Fantasy over in Bolzano-Bozen are not my cousins. Anyway, I hope out of this mediation we do at least keep the possibility open of using the double names. I don't think it gets too far away from Wiki principles, because in this province it is in fact common to see Bolzano-Bozen, Merano-Meran, etc. written everywhere. They are all the same name really, different languages -- same origin. Anyway, don't worry Lars. ^_^ cya guys. Taalo 03:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Look, there have been countless situations very similar to this, and in every case the 'majority' is nothing more than renaming to the modern, there here-and-now. Look at Poland - what used to be the city of Lwow in Poland is now the city of Lviv in Ukraine. Did the Polish-speaking population complain that the (at the time) Russians were 'trying to take away their Polish?' - probably. What was the end result? Assimilation. Want to hear a hard story? Imagine living as my wife did under communism - waking up in your country (or the puppet it represented) and going to school to have to stare at the flag of another country and learn it's language and songs, etc. The situation in South Tyrol is different - it belongs to the Italian government now. It was decided upon by both sides, that's it. It wasn't the kind of assimilation like Poland was under with the Soviet Union. So by the Italians assigning names and such, well, look again at Lviv. After that region was turned over to Ukraine, well, the names were reassigned (from Polish to Ukrainian/Russian) and the people had to assimilate. It didn't necessarily take anything away - but I feel in the case of South Tyrol, well, the Italian government is the one that owns the area (like it or not). I'm sure there are many regions along volatile borders that have experienced the same thing. Bottom line is that as it has been said, a final decision may end up causing hardship or insulting a group (whether majority or minority). And as everything else in the world, we will all have to learn to live with it. Taalo and I mainly started in on this because of the unilateral approach that occurred last year without consensus or the kind of open discussion that is occurring today. So if we go with something that is NPOV and appeases two naming conventions, that may be the most neutral approach possible (given that choosing the minority causes prejudice to the minority in their own country!). Rarelibra 20:41, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Italian Law and the legal position

You appear to be having a problem understanding Italian and European law. All is explained here

• [1]

You need to study specifically: Articles 101 and 102

The following which should be read in conjunction may assist you in your comprehension:

• [2]
• Note this phrase: "As regards place names and proper names, the national authorities use and accept place names in their correct, traditional German form and all given names and surnames can be used in German." However, it does not point out that is only when those given names are recognised within Italian law.

I think you will see the law is quite easily understood in this instance. I draw no conclusions I merely point out the legalities of the situation Giano 07:32, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey thanks for the pointers to that. I wasn't really thinking this was a legal problem per se... Do you think Italian law is binding on WP in this instance or is that information more of a guide to understanding people's thinking? ++Lar: t/c 10:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• The laws of Italy are only binding in Italy, but recognising the official Italian stance helps us to have a clearer picture and validity of the Italian viewpoint. The law decrees it is concrete that both German and Italian names are valid, therefore so titled under international law which means Wikipedia is at liberty to choose. Unlike Roma and Rome etc lesser known places, in the English speaking world, often vary in common usage according to the education and pretensions of the speaker. So Wikipedia has to decide how educated (or pretentious) it wishes to be. It will be impossible to please everyone so one has to weigh the legal and historic arguments against the clamour of those who may be educated, uneducated or merely pretentious. Did the Italian Government recognise Germanic names as a concession to a minority group who had engaged in terrorism, or was it responding to the Germanic heritage of many of its citizens and unifying names in accordance with common naming referrals across Europe. Alternatively you to can consider the names commonly given these places by returning American holiday makers - ie check out your travel agent's sites, but that of course leaves you again dependant on the education of your travel agent. You seem to have landed yourself in a minefield. Giano 11:48, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

OH come on now, give me a break. :) I swear there is are a few who just wants to scare Lars away. LOL. Taalo 05:16, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd prefer to assume good faith, that Giano really just wants to offer information that might have bearing in order to be helpful. I'm not scared at all. It's just a lot to come to grips with, and people clearly have a lot invested in this, it's quite tangled. Which is why this is not going to get resolved in a day. ++Lar: t/c 05:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, partly this is the problem of having discussions through text. I was literally laughing (LOL) when I was writing those sentences -- but obviously that doesn't easily come across. ;] Anyway, I have a good feeling that this all can be sorted out and then some real good articles generated. However much time it takes to resolve things properly is priceless in the end. later. Taalo 07:13, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that first we address the names of the cities, and then we can move on to the North Italian highway names.  :) Regards, Newyorkbrad 11:54, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

hear, hear! hahah. Taalo 05:23, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

PS it's "Lar" (short for Larry) rather than "Lars" (scandinavian name)... no worries though, it's not a big NAMING CONTROVERSY!!! :) ++Lar: t/c 05:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. The way I read the document provided above at [3] - from the official website of the province, no less, is that the name is to be "Trentino-Alto Adige", the province being "Bolzano", etc. So in standing on a proper naming convention, offering up a dual-name NPOV is actually flexing a bit to allow an official stance with ties to the German language as well (instead of just naming it an English translation of just a German name). Rarelibra 20:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

This time is my turn to laugh: the official name of the region is "Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol" but the lemmata are not the same

We shut discuss to name Province of Trento Trentino, being the second the most commonly used name also in English ([4] and [5])--Martin Se 16:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what you are laughing about as I didn't quite follow your point. It is a valid opinion to use Trentino instead of Province of Trento. Though you'll find most, if not all, province pages just are named Province, etc. That is why I favour using Province of Trento or Province of Bolzano. Redirects from Trentino and Alto Adige/Südtirol/South Tyrol. But that is just me. Taalo 18:26, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thank you

My administratorship candidacy succeeded with a final tally of 81/0/1. I appreciate your support. Results are at Wikipedia:Recently_created_admins#Durova. Warmly, Durova 14:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Old case, new thread

Hi. You were the last person to comment on this thread at AN/I. As the case has blown up afresh at AN/I today with all the same arguments, it would be much appreciated if you could pop over and give a perspective on things. Many thanks for your time, Aquilina 10:55, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Sigh... Commented. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. ++Lar: t/c 11:41, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

See the last post in the thread. I answer your question one minute before you asked it! Wikipedia:Community probation was started when I gave Mccready a one month topic ban from PS articles. --FloNight 18:21, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

See that now, and thanks also for the answer on IRC, Ms. Nightingale. Much appreciated. However I'm not clear how all of a sudden I'm the lead admin on this. :) ++Lar: t/c 19:02, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oops!

Hello Lar, I got your name off the list of "Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles" . About 2 days ago I was fooling around with tags on a page that I had created on an ophthalmologist Selig Percy Amoils. I put a "speedy delete" tag on the article, and when I looked again it wasn't there...... Could you please help to restore the piece? Thank you Paul venter 16:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It was restored, and I removed the speedy, but you will need to address the issues in the article, since it's very stubby. ..."remove speedy added by User:Paul venter at his request. Article should be improved or may be speedied anyway soon." was my revision note. Good luck, happy editing! ++Lar: t/c 17:34, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for helping - it is much appreciated!! Paul venter 18:01, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem but you are on your own now, if someone else respeedies it or noms it for AfD in its current state I would tend to support. I saw the removed stuff (copyvio?) and if that can be put back in wihtout copyvios he's notable in my view. Good luck. ++Lar: t/c 18:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks!

I'm now out of the hospital, which is good. Thank you!--Kyoko 20:42, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kingboyk quits The Beatles

I may be pushing it here, but I feel your diplomatic skills may be needed. Following a heavy re-editing of Paul McCartney there was a tiff between two major participants in The Beatles Project, as evidenced here and here. I realise that my comments may not have helped, and if being censured by a third party is deemed appropriate in getting people back then I will take it on the chin, but I believed I was doing the best for all concerned. I also quite understand if you do not feel you want to get involved, but I know you and Kingboyk go back a while. LessHeard vanU 16:15, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Saw some of this from the edges. Am not sure what to think. The Beatles article quality clearly is degrading and we don't have people that want to take the lead (I sure don't) to take care of it coming out of our ears, losing Kingboyk would be bad... but we're all volunteers too so I dunno. I will see what I can figure out to do or say, thanks for bringing it to my attention. ++Lar: t/c 16:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. I think it would be a very good idea if I stayed away from this from now on - my attempts at healing may have contributed toward events; User:Vera, Chuck & Dave has now also quit the Project - and I didn't even speak to him!. I hope you succeed in your efforts (when you decide what they should be!) LessHeard vanU 16:28, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My RFA!

Lar, thank you so much for your support for my RfA. I passed with a vote tally of 61/0/1. I am honored that the consensus was to allow me the added privilege of the admin mop. I appreciate your support and complimentary words on my RFA, as well as your note of congratulations! --plange 21:46, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Danny's contest

Has there been a decision on Wikipedia:Danny's contest? User:Zoe|(talk) 17:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

We are waiting input from two of the judges to be able to tabulate raw scores. Please feel free to nudge Sannse and Fuzheado if you like. :) Sorry for the delay! ++Lar: t/c 18:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A very Californian RfA thanks from Luna Santin

Thanks for your support in my not-so-recent RfA, which succeeded with a final tally of (97/4/4)! I've never been able to accept compliments gracefully, and the heavy support from this outstanding community left me at a complete loss for words -- so, a very belated thank you for all of your kind words. I have done and will continue to do the utmost to serve the community in this new capacity, wherever it may take me, and to set an example others might wish to follow in. With a little luck and a lot of advice, this may be enough. Maybe someday the enwiki admins of the future will look back and say, "Yeah, that guy was an admin." Hopefully then they don't start talking about the explosive ArbComm case I got tied into and oh what a drama that was, but we'll see, won't we? Surely some of you have seen me in action by now; with that in mind, I openly invite and welcome any feedback here or here -- help me become the best editor and sysop I can be. Again, thank you. –Luna Santin

As I recall, you mentioned on IRC that you're not too fond of this spamming trend, but I did especially want to thank you for your input, both your !vote and your earlier advice to me. Both are especially valuable because I could tell that you seriously considered the questions and issues involved in an RfA -- independent thinkers are very important, I think. So, thank you. Luna Santin 19:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I think you may be thinking of others. I love thankyous, as long as they are not completely generic. Yours isn't. ++Lar: t/c 19:34, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Might want to check out User:Gene Centauri

FYI - Gene Centauri (talk • contribs • count) appears to be someone's sock harrassing User:Gene Poole and User:Centauri, may be username blockable... Georgewilliamherbert 02:15, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Seems that way to me as well. Blocked. Thanks for the heads up. ++Lar: t/c 02:44, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Or someone who wants it to look like that to make a point. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 04:54, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

FYI, Gene is telling people he thinks it's Wik, but I have no idea how to verify that... I think Wik's behavior problems all predate my time here. Georgewilliamherbert 05:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I know he is. And he's telling Jimmy that DreamGuy created these socks. [6]. I'm not aware of any evidence at all that supports that claim (and there's no RFCU listed). It's just a bit too convenient for my liking. Especially after Elonka's RfA and Taxman discounting Centauri's !vote as Gene's sockpuppet. Sarah Ewart (Talk) 05:23, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Hey, admin party at my talk page! Well actually filling out CU requests is a lot of work so I tend to just block based on obviousness. Gene Centauri was an ID up to no good regardless of whose sock it might be, and an attack name too, so that's a good enough reason to block for me, and I did. If someone wanted to CU Gene Poole and Centauri, that would be fine by me, but that accusation has been hurled around a lot, and it's actual work so :) But ya... it all is just a bit too convenient isn't it? But those other socks mentioned.. might as well block them too. which I will if they aren't already... they weren't so I did. Thanks for the info, all... ++Lar: t/c 11:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Military history WikiProject Newsletter: Issue VIII - October 2006

The October 2006 issue of the Military history WikiProject newsletter has been published. You may read the newsletter, change the format in which future issues will be delivered to you, or unsubscribe from this notification by following the link. Thank you.

This is an automated delivery by grafikbot 22:41, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] how did you make your user space so sweet?

seriously, I would love to set mine up like yours but I have no idea how. PStrait 04:42, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Thank you for your kind words. I can only suggest that you do what I did, look at the source of pages you like to see how things were done. If it's the tabs you like, I suggest looking at User:Lar/HeaderTabs, which uses User:Lar/ActiveTab and User:Lar/OtherTab to achieve the effect of a current tab (that blends with the frame) and other inactive tabs. Unlike Phaedriel I won't even try to commit to redoing other people's pages for them! But... if you have specific questions about things I will do my best to answer them for you. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 12:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comanche_cph seems to be back

I removed an unsourced and subjective statement from the article about Copenhagen about a minute ago. I suspect that it is the same individual using that IP (User:125.235.247.223) as the one who uses the account User:Comanche_cph, since that edit [7] is identical to the one made by Comanche_cph [8] in August this year. (Comparison here) The same anonymous user have also made an edit to the article about Scandinavia, that more or less matches the opinions expressed by Comanche cph before he/she was blocked this summer. This anonymous user hasn't overstepped yet (except for what I've corrected in the Copenhagen article), and AFAIK the block has expired. But I'd like to inform you anyway, in case we have another revert war on our hands. /M.O (u) (t) 10:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, I will keep an eye on this. ++Lar: t/c 13:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Please help (again)

Lar, I must apologize for contacting you again, however it seems that I am continually being pursued by User:Gryffndor in the events that occurred a while back regarding South Tyrol. If you look at my contributions since the initiation of mediation, I have gone on to make edits regarding the geography of various Cantons of France, several edits regarding telecommunications companies, edits with telecommunications and mapping categories, etc. I have no wish to interact with Gryffndor - in fact, I have recently been approved for using VandalBot and joined Esperanza as well. Can you please help by letting Gryffndor know that I wish to have no involvement, and that because of the recent events he should please avoid any more antagonism? Thank you. Rarelibra 23:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Well what is he doing exactly that you find objectionable? Do you have specific diffs that you could share? I've talked to him and I find him reasonable for the most part, and I find you reasonable for the most part as well. Avoiding each other does seem prudent. ++Lar: t/c 00:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one, I added an archive page which he failed to notice and has since added things back - though I am allowed the archive page as Wikipedia states. I wish he would just go his way and leave me alone, as my edits are contributing to positive not negative. Rarelibra 15:11, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Just politely point out that there is an archive, but if stuff comes back perhaps it is because it's important? ++Lar: t/c 19:01, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Lar - there's no denying importance. But I do have the right to archive with availability. That is within the rules of Wikipedia. I just want this monkey off my back so I can continue to do edits and make contributions on a daily basis. That's all. Rarelibra 01:26, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you give a diff to where this happened? Archiving of your user page certainly is in your control, but archiving of discussion pages, by convention, if something is sitll being talked about, anyone can and should bring back. Without diffs or at least a link to what page, I can't help you more than that. ++Lar: t/c 01:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

That is the whole point here. I was pretty much done with anything and everything to do with Gryffndor, but he is STILL pursuing me (waiting a week or so and then posting a sockpuppet accusation against a friend of mine, and then posting to my talk page). The discussion isn't ongoing, it was dead, and he keeps bringing it back up. I just want to be left alone - on a daily basis I make telecom and (currently) French administrative unit entries. On a more positive note, are we anywhere close to solving the South Tyrol issue? Rarelibra 07:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Please give a diff. I can't even try to help you without a diff. You do know what a diff is, right? Please let me know if that is not clear. We are not close to being done with South Tyrol as I have not come to grips with it. ++Lar: t/c 11:49, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

It's been taken care of by another admin, quoting that a user doesn't have to keep such warning templates on their talk pages - and if someone like Gryffndor continues to revert the changes, he is actually in jeopardy of the 3RR rule. Rarelibra 18:00, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes I saw... I went and took a look at your user talk because I suspected that maybe was what it was, despite your not giving me the diffs I asked for, several times. You should know that there is controversy around whether removal of warnings is uniformly a good idea or not. Myself, if I'm watching a particularly troublesome editor, I tend to look on warning removal rather unfavourably, as it makes the job of other admins harder. The issue here though in my view is that neither of you should be interacting with the other more than absolutely necessary. In future, though, if you ask for help with something, and are asked for a diff, provide it in your hext response, it will help a lot. ++Lar: t/c 18:11, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Lar - I didn't mean to give the impression of ignoring you, I really don't know what a diff is... :( Could you educate me? BTW - I saw your user page and see that your name is Polish? Rarelibra 19:45, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

this is a diff. (actually showing your addition just above as it turns out) You get it by going to the history of a page, and selecting the versions to compare with radio buttons, and pressing the diff button at the top, and then copying the URL. Hope that helps. ++Lar: t/c 19:48, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] guilty

My secret pleasure... (an anonymous contributor)

Dear Lar,

Thank you for attempting to educate me about image uploading. The Shameful Truth is that I was well aware of this fact and ignored it in a Disgraceful Manner due to the Lateness of the Hour, Laziness, and various Serious Character Defects that are too numerous to detail here.

Surely I shall Burn in Hell for this and my other Wikipedia Transgressions.

A Fallen Wikipedian, FloNight 18:30, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Quite the Gentleman you are Lar! Your scheme will surely stop interlopers from intruding into our Morality play. More to the point, wouldn't your Fallen Wikipedian by definition be an Extra Friendly Wikipedian? ;-) FloNight 22:09, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Esperanza Admin coaching - October 29

You are receiving this message because you are currently listed as a coach in the 'Active' section of the coaching box.

• If the coaching has finished please add your trainee to the archived requests section of the archive, and remove the entry from the coaching box.
• You can fill in information about your former students, at the main archive.
• If the coaching is ongoing please continue :) This might serve as a useful reminder to check with your trainee if they have any new questions!
• If you are ready to be assigned a new trainee, or have any other questions, please let me know on my talk page.

Thank you for helping with admin coaching! Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 20:28, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

So would you prefer to be moved to inactive at present, or would still want to contribute with a co-partner? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 17:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I really liked having Petros as a partner so I think inactive as long as Petros is... ++Lar: t/c 21:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Beatles AfD

If you hadn't noticed a vandal put The Beatles up for deletion. As this is clearly vandalism I reverted to the article previous to the notice - however I realise that the notice is probably in the Wiki system and I need an admin to get it removed. I will argue that the lesser evil is to remove the tag from the article to avoid confusion, and then do the business with Wikipedia. I'm copying this note to Kingboyk in case you are busy.LessHeard vanU 22:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Kingboyk advices that the above matter has been sorted. I will leave it up to you whether you want to removed these comments.LessHeard vanU 22:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Rolling back an obvious vandalism like an AfD on The Beatles is a very good revert, well done. I don't see any reason to remove these comments, all is well. Glad it's sorted. ++Lar: t/c 23:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clerkship Parte Deux

Dear Lar, may I enlist your serives as my clerk once again? I have requested that Q12 and my non-response to it be refactored out of Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2006/Candidate statements/Questions for Crzrussian and onto my talk page - but I don't think it would be appropriate for me to do so myself, for obvious reasons. Could you review this request, and either fulfill it if you think the request appropriate, or state for the record on Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2006/Candidate statements/Questions for Crzrussian that you think the request is not appropriate. I'll defer to your decision on this, unless, for whatever reason, you choose not to serve. Thanks a lot. - crz crztalk 20:20, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I will take a look and either fulfill it or state for the record as you request. Give me a bit of time though. ++Lar: t/c 20:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

sent you an email... thanks! ++Lar: t/c 22:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Humm, I find this an odd request, and I seriously worried with the censoring that User:Crzrussian tries to impose on me by using you as a proxy. -- Kim van der Linde ^{at venus} 15:55, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re: my secret

Oh dear, you've found out my secret! I was going to ask you to keep it to yourself, but on further consideration, I beg of you, please take appropriate action! This Guinnog account is way too prolific and I simply cannot maintain the account's image anymore! Sarah Ewart (Talk) 21:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser away, my friend. You won't pin anything on me. Your suspicions are groundless. Sarah, er Guinnog 21:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Now how fascinating that you come out with conflicting stories! As to the appropriate action??? hm... ++Lar: t/c 22:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankly I am relieved the charade is over. Those suborbital hops on the black stealth aircraft from Oz to Scotland were doing my head in anyway... --Guinnog 22:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Oz ?? I've a "fan"/stalker who is apparently trying to convince me that there is no such place as Oz. Are you sure you're not in a fantasy land? Too much Guinness while in flight? ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That'll be it likely. Which reminds me, I am still searching for a John Courage photo for you. It might make a nice project award or Barnstar, what do you think? --Guinnog 23:28, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

A project award or informal award would both seem good ideas, especially the latter (the use of Courage to denote courageous actions seems apropos). Not sure about it being a barnstar image though. I don't hang out at WP:BEER so couldn't say what they do per se. Now how come you know about that glass of beer I gave Sarah??? :) Oh wait, I know. ++Lar: t/c 23:39, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

A factual correction is a factual correction. That was the equivalent of saying a Ferrari is a French car to me. Sad, eh? :) --Guinnog 00:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Just to let you know, since the suborbital black stealth aircraft are still classified, agents will be by soon to debrief you regarding its disclosure on an unclassified website. Please do not be alarmed by the various assortment of equipment they carry. Thanks! :D ~Kylu (u|t) 00:11, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It's ok. I'll probably know them from training from before I accepted this assignment. Oh no, what am I saying? How do you delete stuff from this crazy thing? Hang on, that's the door... --Guinnog 00:14, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikistalking?

I think it would be much more collegial to confine suggestions of wikistalking to user talk or RfA pages, rather than article talk pages, don't you? RoscoHead 21:46, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it's rather rich for you to speak of collegiality, actually. But thanks for your input. ++Lar: t/c 22:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh? Why do you say that? RoscoHead 23:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Let's not be coy, Rosco. At least part, of your reason for being here is related to me. You know it, and now you know I know it too, as I have, independently confirmed, for some time. I think that's rather a waste of time and effort on your part, but I guess everyone has to have a hobby. ++Lar: t/c 23:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I'll take your word for it, but I'm still intrigued why you say "I think it's rather rich for you to speak of collegiality"? RoscoHead 23:43, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not just my word, mind you... As to why: You're stalking me, and not for our mutual amusement based on an existing friendship, as in the example you gave, from an older talk page of mine (interesting that you were able to dredge it up, or that you felt the need to.)... QED. ++Lar: t/c 00:26, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your response, but it just brings up more questions for me. First it *IS* only your word that I'm taking, because it's the only word I have definitive proof of. But to the questions; let's (hypothetically) say you're right, and I'm stalking you. Why does that cause you to say "I think it's rather rich for you to speak of collegiality"? Do you think stalking and collegiality are mutually exclusive? Or maybe you say that to everyone you think is stalking you? And what exactly has been definitively proven? RoscoHead 00:57, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

(deindent) Hi Lar, sorry to butt in. I've asked RoscoHead to back off. Can I ask you too to let this drop here? As I said to the other user, I don't think it is going anywhere good. Apologies again for playing the cop; I know you can fight your own battles. Just don't think this is the place for it. Best wishes --Guinnog 01:06, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Intimidation?

redacted to User_talk:Great2bnaustin#Intimidation.3F per my policy. Threads should stay where they start for best clarity. ++Lar: t/c 05:00, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Userfication request

Hi Lar. I've been asked for a copy of a deleted article. Ordinarily with userfication I'd undelete and move to userspace, but this article has over 500 edits. Do you think it's alright to just copy the latest revision for the editor? Any GFDL issues? --kingboyk 12:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

My understanding on GFDL is that we MUST preserve the revision history, even for something that ends up in user space, if it isn't deleted outright, with certain very limited exceptions. That's because we have to be able to attribute work properly. So I'd restore it with all 500 versions in the history and then move it... copy paste moves are almost always frowned on... I could be wrong, and you could get more opinions on WP:AN. ++Lar: t/c 13:13, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Lar. I userfied the whole thing and advised him to move rather than paste it back should it ever make a return to article space. --kingboyk 15:41, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] November Esperanza Newsletter

[edit] #wikipedia-en-admins

Can you please grant me access to the channel. My nickname is CBWeather. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 02:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, since you're an admin. I'll sort it out for you tonite if you're not already sorted. Do you have a cloak? ++Lar: t/c 19:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No I don't. Thanks. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 04:01, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't see you on tonite.... ping me when you're in IRC and see me and I'll get you sorted if you haven't already been set up. ++Lar: t/c 05:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I was on for a couple of hours. Which channel? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 15:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sorry I missed you, I should be on again tonight I think. Check in #wikipedia and in #wikipedia-en to see if I am around, then ping me or open a query to me so we can talk through it.. You have at least registered 2 nicks, and linked them together, right? ++Lar: t/c 16:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Does he have to roll one trouser leg up, and bear his left breast? Giano 16:40, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

No. And there are other channel admins that can help him, of course. But those are the requirements for admission to that channel as I understand them, a cloak is preferred, and having two nicks, registered and linked together, is required. The rest is just how to get hold of me. Hope that helps, thanks for stopping by. ++Lar: t/c 16:49, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Gosh this is intriguing, what is the cloak like? - is it like the Caped Crusader's - and what about the 2 nicks linked, what are they, some sort of initiation incisions like Red Indians do, with nipple piercings linked with a chain? do people have an anaesthetic before the nick is made? I'm glad I'm not an admin it all sounds jolly painful. When you are initiating people do you wear a special sort of hat, like a grand wizard? I only ask, you understand, because I'm interested in this sort of thing. Giano 17:47, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm in #wikipedia-en-admins regularly, and I have neither cloak nor more than one nick. (I do have a jolly good branding scar, though!) Should I? -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:06, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You just have to be registered and logged in AFAIK. If you see me on, you can ping me to add you too. Bearing of breasts may or may not be encouraged, but what happens in #wikipedia-en-admins, stays in #wikipedia-en-admins. --Interiot 18:21, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Ah, but sadly I'm not an admin, story of my life, I've always been interested in secret societies and things since my very best friend Gianluca and I formed a very secret society, we too had codes and initiations and secret ways of communicating just like Lar's; but then Gianluca's mother said we had to admit his sister Eleanora, and all the other members left and formed their own secret society and wouldn't let us join unless we lost Eleanora - so we lost her but alas she was found and Gianluca's mother told my mother and it all became very unpleasant and stressful - and I never did again join a secret society - so I'm just interested - does Lar though have to wear a special hat, or something else distinguishing, when he's initiating? Giano 18:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not really all that much of a secret cabal. About the only thing that's secret there are OTRS issues (for some reason #wikipedia-en-admins is restricted, but #wikimedia-otrs isn't). 97% of the time, people seem to hang out in #wikipedia-en-admins just because it's not quite as off-topic as the other channels. The buzzwords are IRC/Freenode-specific stuff, you can read about it in their FAQ. And for what it's worth, if it would decrease this ingroup/outgroup tension, I'd most likely support you as admin. --Interiot 18:46, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Another admin party on my talk page! All I know is what I was told, that cloaks are good, but not mandatory, but you have to have two linked nicks. I have no idea why that is without reading up the stuff I read back when, and don't really care. There are a large number of people that have sufficient access to grant access to the channel, and do the invite exemption, so it's not like CBWeather has to get it from me. Giano I hope you've now got whatever it is you came here for. Not that I'm clear on exactly what it is or why you came here but ok... ++Lar: t/c 19:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

It's just not true about two linked nicks. I've only got the one, and I'm in #wikipedia-en-admins right now. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a little bird tells me that what that is all about is that you need two linked nicks to GET a cloak. And having a cloak makes giving the invite exemption easier I think. But I dunno... ++Lar: t/c 19:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

So where does one get the invitation, or can anyone join - is "Little Bird" a code name for someone important? - like Secret Squirrel? Why is so secret what you wear Lar for initiations? Giano 20:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Giano, please consider posting in a way that doesn't give me the impression you are trolling, thanks. If you seriously have questions about this there are resources available to you. Start with the IRC article would be my suggestion, and the FAQ on Freenode. If you don't seriously have questions, well at this point, you may find more sympathetic ground for your bon mots elsewhere. ++Lar: t/c 20:34, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Relax! There is no need to be offensive Lar, I realise this is all frightfully important to you. As a mater of fact I have no wish to join your secret society with or without nips and tucks and magic cloaks and jockstraps, I shall form my own secret club "Freccia ardente di verità" and no matter how much you plead I won't let you join not even if you give me all your candy and pocket money. Now you have a nice secretive evening and watch out for spies in the camp! Ciao Giano 20:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

OK, so you don't actually have any serious questions then? Glad we've got that sorted... But watch out that those flaming arrows don't hit you in the place you keep your truth, hm? ++Lar: t/c 20:58, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Have no fear Lar, I never miss a trick! Giano 21:09, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a few bits of information for the curious:

• Wikipedia:IRC cloaks and, related, m:IRC channel cloaks
• Wikipedia:IRC channels
• Just about the entire category: m:Category:IRC
• Once you're connected to IRC, you can see the access list by typing /msg chanserv access #wikipedia-en-admins list
• Other notable Wikipedia admins with access there are myself, Bishonen, and Bunchofgrapes. Any admin can request to be added, though since it takes effort to do so, and not all admins care about either IRC or that channel, it's only done on request.

Buon giorno. ~Kylu (u|t) 00:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Ciao Kylu! Thanks for clearing that up, I'd no idea a cloak could be anything other than the obvious. - Oh to have been educated in IT, when I was young we had to save for three years to afford a pocket calculator the size of a house brick. I'm glad you popped up here though, because funnily enough it was you who fist alerted me to the secret Admins channel, do you remember when you banned me following discussions on that channel, then when the ban turned out to be controversial you couldn't remember with whom you had discussed it, then when it turned out to be Lar (not exactly an unbiased party) Lar became very cross, and refused to have any of the conversation disclosed - so you see I started to wonder about the channel then - and why Wikipedia matters discussed there are secret. Never mind it's all clear now. I won't bother posting to this thread again unless anyone else makes a pertinent point. Giano 09:21, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Danny's contest

So, does "fairly shortly" mean "real soon now", or are there other complications that are delaying things? ;-) Kirill Lokshin 20:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Other complications. :) The results are written (were as of last Friday actually). Danny knows where they are. He liked what we came up with for our selection. He just needs to announce the results. So at this point I'd bug Danny... I don't want to steal his thunder without his blessing. My apologies if this is giving you any heartburn! ++Lar: t/c 20:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User talk:Guinnog/date linking

Thanks for your support! --Guinnog 23:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Has anyone done a "Defend Each Other" essay on en-wiki?

Other than the meatball wiki reference, is there any such essay, or guideline or whatnot here on en.wikipedia? I keep thinking that we should if we don't already, but I don't want to duplicate effort. Thanks! Georgewilliamherbert 04:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't know but I think if no one has it would be a good idea. Perhaps with a bit more meat that the meatball one (which gets the point across though, I was thinking of examples). I've been off wiki but I have been thinking that there are a few folk that need defending right now, too. ++Lar: t/c 12:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject The Beatles Newsletter, Issue 7, November 2006

WikiProject The Beatles Newsletter Issue 007 – November 2006
Issue of the Month Again, the issue of the month is inline citations. A Day in the Life, A Hard Day's Night (song), and Get Back have all been defeatured, as they failed to satisfy criterion 1(c) of What is a featured article?, and other song FAs are due for the chopping block. Inline citations are an important aspect of articles—they ensure verifiability and reliability, and they remove original research. Additionally, they give readers the option to read the original source material and view it within context. Basically: All direct quotations attributed to Beatles members pooled from interviews need full inline citations. All critical comments about songs or albums need full inline citations to notable music critics, magazines opinions, or reviews, as opposed to being merely comments by Wikipedians. Inline citations need: author name, article name, publication date, and name of publication. Such info is still preferable even if quoting from an interview posted upon a website; when this is the case, place the URL link at the end of the citation with the date it was last accessed. (This will help editors retrieve the page using the Wayback Machine, should the link go dead in the future.) Beatles News The Beatles are due to release a soundtrack album, LOVE, at the end of November, as a companion to their Cirque du Soleil adaptation of the same name. It will feature remastered and remixed versions of their previously released songs, including some new medleys. Paul's getting a divorce. Pain, arguing, and fighting abound. Project News Featured Article drive: A number of project members are collaborating on Paul McCartney's article, with the aim of getting it to Featured Article status. The work is going well and all help is welcome! Check in at Talk:Paul McCartney if you want to help. The Wings tours are really nicely documented now (see Category:Wings tours), but Category:The Beatles tours is almost empty. Kingboyk and the rest of us would love to see (and read) articles on each Beatles tour, including the pre-fame tours of the UK—and the Hamburg trips, of course! The article on Alistair Taylor has been adopted by Alexcalamaro. Two new articles have been listed in the Project Log since 1 October: "I'll Be on My Way", a Lennon/McCartney song from 1963 (Zakko) Wings tours, a list of Wings concert tours (Kingboyk) The hottest Project page this month has been Paul McCartney, involved in the Featured Article drive, as mentioned above.	Member News New members to the project since the last issue include NauticaShades, Raymond Arritt, Alexcalamaro, Willie the Walrein, Peanut33Tillman, and Samboha. Our project members are too modest to report any awards they may have given or received. From the Editors Wherever possible, editors should help to trim down on list-like prose within Beatles articles. They should convert list-like sections into fluent, cohesive prose which ties an article's sections together. Lists make articles disjointed, awkward, and difficult to read. Be sure to take part in the Featured Article drive, and don't forget those inline citations! If you've just joined, add your name to the Participants section of Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles. You'll get a mention in the next issue of the Newsletter and get it delivered as desired. Also, please include your own promotions and awards in future issues. Don't be shy! Lastly, this is your newsletter and you can be involved in the creation of the next issue (Issue 008 – December 2006). Any and all contributions are welcome. Simply let yourself be known to any of the undersigned, or just start editing! Contributors to this Issue GPHemsley (Lead Editor) LuciferMorgan (Editor) Kingboyk (Editor) Lar (Distributor)
Complete To Do List Make visible or invisible by clicking Show or Hide, respectively. Open tasks for WikiProject The Beatles. Edit or discuss these tasks. As the project is currently just starting, our more experienced editors are working on the project infrastructure, classifying articles, and listing/assessing red links. Your assistance is welcome. If you would prefer to just edit - and why wouldn't you? - we have a choice selection of red links to turn blue and articles to clean! Now let's get busy. To Expand: Apple Records See also: Adopt an article To Clean up: Apple Records discography (wikify). The Beatles' 1965 USA Tour. To Merge: To Create: Lennon/McCartney songs: I'll Keep You Satisfied (produced by George Martin), From A Window. George Martin produced Billy J. Kramer song: Magic Carpet (song). Songs covered by The Beatles: Hippy Hippy Shake. The Big Three. Bag o'Nails, where Paul met Linda. Macca single: My Brave Face. Articles on each Beatle tour (Category:The Beatles tours). Be-Bop-A-Lula. Go Now (song) - Moody Blues song sung by Denny Laine on Wings Over America (also needs wikilinking from various Wings and Moody Blues related articles). Full list & instructions. Lists to complete: Wanted Pics/Graphics: Mal Evans, Flying (song), Astrid Kirchherr, Jimmy Nicol, Cynthia Powell, Alistair Taylor, Ivan Vaughan, Tittenhurst Park. We need a better open-licenced photo for the project, to replace the Abbey Road crossing. If you provide a photo, please remove the ReqPhoto tag from the article's talk page and remove the article from this list. Project Discussions: The Beatles history, Individual songs vs longer album articles, Beatle wives, Merge/split proposals Project: Add {{WPBeatles}} to the talk pages of all Beatles-related articles. Send a newsletter to members, canvas for new members, and coordinate tasks. Enter articles classed as stubs into this list (under To Expand) and also list articles needing cleaning and other work here. If you complete one of these tasks, please remove it from the list and add your achievement to the project log.

Want to help on next month's newsletter? Don't want to receive these in future? Don't want it subst'd next time? – It's all here.

[edit] Threats?

"For making threats against Cool Cat and others"?   What threats? – SAJordan ^talk_contribs 02:20, 14 Nov 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Tobias Conradi

If it's alright, I'd like to mentor Tobias Conradi. I am not an administrator but I'd say I'm a firm, polite user. KazakhPol 05:01, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Strikes me that having an admin (who can block) might be better but if you wanted to try, sounds good to me, mention it on the WP:AN/I thread. I certainly have no standing to decide per se.... ++Lar: t/c 05:19, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] RFA Thanks

[edit] Arpad Elo

Will you pleast step in and undo User:Calton's undiscussed move of Arpad Elo, contrary to everything in Wikipedia:Naming conventions, without any discussion on the long-standing talk page, as pointed out at Talk:Árpád Élő#User:Calton trying to pick a fight. That this is indeed [User:Calton|Calton's]] sole purpose is quite evident from his reply on [my talk page. Gene Nygaard 05:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Please. You left a childish, foot-stamping threat on my page ("Now, please move that back, or I will have to find the appropriate place for a complaint against your actions"). That's not picking a fight, that's calling your bluff. --Calton | Talk 06:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

um, is mot Wikipedia:Requested moves the right place to discuss this? I don't think I'm competent to have an opinion on this one at this time without a lot more research. ++Lar: t/c 12:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] IRC

Hi. If I want access to #wikipedia-en-admins do I need to contact you even if I am an administrator? / Fred-Chess 15:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Before I forget, I had intended to ask on IRC what template to use for sockpuppet banned users (if I wait two minutes longer, I will forget the question) .

Fred-Chess 15:47, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

To use that channel you need to be on the access list. I am one of several that can add you. Once on, you have to invite yourself to join every time you start up your chat client again. However it is possible to get an invite exemption, if you have a consistent mask. Do you have a cloak? ++Lar: t/c 00:23, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a cloak.

Can you please add me to the list and tell me how to proceed?

Fred-Chess 15:46, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes. There are other people that can help you but since you don't have a cloak I'll want you to verify your identity for me by getting hold of me in IRC and doing something I tell you to do. What is your IRC nick? I tried fred-chess but did not find you. ++Lar: t/c 16:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't online. It should work now. / Fred-Chess 16:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

"I confirm that my IRC nick is Fred-Chess" Fred-Chess 16:08, 19 November 2006 (UTC)