User talk:Sundar

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Email me for anything urgent.

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[edit] Belated vacation notice and thank you

I thank you all for your Diwali wishes. I was away on vacation and couldn't reply you earlier. I read each one of your wishes and please treat this as a personal "thank you" note. I've also taken note of other messages too. Please give me some time to respond to them while I complete my non-wiki stuff. Thanks. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 04:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need some clarifications

• What is wikistalking? Found it. just saw your message. I had already typed this by then. Thanks anyway
• As far as I can remember, I have always been civil in my language with User:Parthi. Per this I dont see how my comments can be construed as uncivil. Please correct me if I am mistaken.
• And in my opinion, this by User:Baka was certainly uncivil(and a PA) and hence this warning by Arya was frivolous; not to mention, anything about the same two users in question indulging in a no-holds barred all out attack and insinuation of me being a puppetmaster on the checkuser page(where if you noticed, I refrained from commenting in spite of extreme provocation)
• This one and this one where Parthi accuses me of PA when I am not even close and goes ahead to attribute malicious intentions to my edits one was uncivil too.

Please let me know if I am mistaken. Thanks and belated Deepawali wishes. Sarvagnya 10:52, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

And since I now know what wikistalking is, I can assure you that I'd be editing the pages I edit, whether or not Parthi or anyone else edits those pages. And since I now know what wikistalking is, I fear that Arya and Mahawiki may be indulging in exactly the same thing. I request you to please check(I am talking about Carnatic music, not SJSA).

Also, about the articles in question(Sangam and Sangam lit.,) which I presume you're talking about, I certainly feel that I have discussed my edits on the talk page to a fault. Even to the point of being verbose perhaps. e.g.,. I also feel that everyone has to AGF a little more. This is the kind of admin mediation that could probably have prevented Mahawiki vs Kannada editors go downhill as badly as it did. Thanks for your timely intervention. Sarvagnya 11:32, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Namaskar. As far as my edits on Carnatic music,I am sorry for that.But I think I am entitled to edit SJSE or Konkani since I know about it or it is directly or indirectly related to my intrests.In case u dont know Sarvagnya's wikistalking, his edits on Marathi_people, Maratha_empire, People known as great compromise it.I hope u dont mind my defending the articles related to Maharashtra as I am concerned about pushing of POV by 'some editors' there.

Please have a look on Konkani page,I find mention of Kannada script on that page unnecessary.Plz advice on that issue.

Mahawiki 13:34, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] thanks man

Sundarbhai, I do not deserve so many barnstars! Needless to say, I appreciate it a helluva lot. As for FA drives, those are my raison d'etre. Whenever I can be of use, lemme know. Thanks again, Rama's arrow 13:39, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

You surely deserve the barnstar. Continue your good work. I'll ask you if I need you for some article. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 13:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

When I started my second editor review, I had no idea how greatly helpful it would be to me. Here are people from across the world who I've never met or laid eyes upon, taking their personal time to think about me and offer me valuable criticism and advice. And the stuff I've learnt is more helpful in real life than just on Wikipedia. This is an experiment I will never forget. I thank you most sincerely for your kindness, for helping me be a better person. I am very much in your debt. Rama's arrow 15:43, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikistalking

Sundar, I was not aware that wikistalking is offensive otherwise I'd have reported Venu62's actions long back. Please see [[1]] and [[2]] to see who is stalking whom.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 20:25, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, just to keep you informed about Venu62's actions, not that you have to do anything:

See evidences of his wikistalking (all within the last 1-2 days immediately after my edits, and on a wide variety of topics in which he hasnt taken done a single edit earlier):

Teshub, Slavic Mythology , Kerala Kalamandalam, Chembai, Chembai Sangeetholsavam, Tamil Trinity

These are only a small sample, if you want I can give more. Now you say, isn't my case of stalking and harrasment made?-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Carnatic music

Sundar, I have no particular barrow to push as far as this article is concerned. My only role since the dispute started is to offer support to User:Aadal, who has the knowledge in Carnatic music. My position is to be inclusive. As I have stated many times in the CM talk page, we don't claim that the Ancient Tamil music was/is identical to Carnatic music of today. All we want to document that the evolution of Carnatic music had many influences including the Ancient Tamil music. In this context, the contributions of the Tamil Trinity and Cilappatikaram et al are relevant to lay the ground work of prevailing environment in South India which helped the music system to evolve. Now this is not to deny that other influences such as the Kannada music or Andhra music did not have any influence. I simply do not have the knowledge in them. User:Srkris and others seem to brush aside anything that they don't agree with or have any knowledge of. For example this user even claimed that Cilappatikaram doesn't even represent Tamil culture as its author may have been a Jain! - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 21:28, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Many people and many tradtions influenced CM. However, we should not lose sight of how much these influences really count in the final tally. The fact of the matter is musicologists are unanimous about the influences of Sanskrit traditions like that of the Sama Veda. They are unanimous about the seminal and definitive nature of NS, Brhddesi, SR, CP and many texts between and after these texts. All these authoritative texts are in Sanskrit and authored by people from all over India(infact a good number of them are from Karnataka and probably none of them were from Tamil country until around Venkatamukhi). And we havent seen any evidence yet of any of these works crediting either the Silapp., or the TT with anything.

Even if we were to suppose for a moment that, the Silapp., and the so called tamil trinity may have influenced the evolution of CM in their own ways, there is no reason for us to believe that they've had enough influence to warrant mentions in a 200 word(or so) summary of the History of CM.

Forget a 200 word summary, I can cite entire books of 200 pages or more that have been written about the topic without even so much as mentioning these works (or the associated kurals, thuttamsa and uLLocais) even in passing. Sarvagnya 21:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, sorry that I'm using your talk page to explain. My stand is that ATM is a parallel tradition which eventually died out, after leaving some of its influence in Carnatic Music. This has nothing to do with Tamil vs Sanskrit names etc. There have been many Tamil Carantic Composers who are well recognized. I am just saying Silappathikaram music is not Carnatic Music by any stretch, and swaras were never referred to by their ATM names by any Carnatic Musician at any point of time. I love Tamil and everything about Tamil as much as you or Venu62 or Aadal do, but that is not relevant here, and I want to clarify this!-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to what Venu62 says above, he was the one who started the dispute, after I registered my protest against his unreasonable reverts - just see the talk page. He invited Aadal into it and passed on the mantle to Aadal, and acts innocent now. He has been stalking me as I have pointed out above. He has been threatening me in my talk page, see [3]. Please also have a look my level of civility in my message to him versus his in reply.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 08:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

With this kind of bad blood running between you, I doubt if mediation would be effective. I'm afraid, it'll go for arbitration, in which case it'll be tiresome and painful. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 08:48, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sundar, This might give you a background to the animosity User:Srkris feels towards me. As far as the CM article is concerned, I have stopped actively contributing long time ago. I have even removed it from my watchlist. All I do nowadays is to watch for blatant vandalism and linkspamming. I have no dispute with the editors. But I can't standby watching two or three editors ganging up against one editor (Aadal) who has been very civil and reasonable so far against great provocation. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 09:37, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Watching against linkspamming is admissible. Regarding CM, let's wait for the mediators to respond. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, you now understand the level of animosity Venu62 has been displaying towards me. I can show you more such actions of his. If there's a misunderstanding between me and Aadal regarding the CM article, why does Venu62 have to interfere or attack me personally and engage in wikistalking (i.e harrassment)? If you see the very first heading on the CM talk page, it was his arbitrary reversals which made me complain against his high handed behaviour. I never ganged up with Sarvagna or anyone else. They (Sarvagna etc) just agreed with my views about Venu62 and they themselves decided to proceed along with me. I have already shown you a sample of my message in his talk page and how he replied in my talk page for it. He said initially "To use an Aussie term, dont get your knickers in a knot over this". You can understand his politeness level with a stranger.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 16:03, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason I'm telling you all this even though you stood in support of Venu62 like a friend, is because I am convinced of your neutrality and fairness, and also to show who has been causing greater offence here. I am ready to apologise for any offense I have caused to anyone, I know I have, but what I have been receiving in return is much worse.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 16:08, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Are you accusing me of spamming? Are you aware that my links had nothing to do with spamming (even if Venu62 claims so maliciously)? The issue was that even external links that are related to the topic at hand are not allowed on wikipedia if they are from forum threads. I had posted some such threads on many articles and Venu62 calls it spam. It is regrettable that you are toeing his line. Venu62's wikistalking has nothing to do with this however. Whether he has contributed for 1 FA or a hundred does not give him immunity to disrupt or harrass other editors. -- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 11:39, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

How is adding threads of a carnatic music forum in related carnatic music articles considered spamming? I did not have the habit of logging into WP often until lately, so most of my edits have been anonymous before September. Also please note I had provided only relevant threads in corresponding WP pages - like adding a forum thread URL containing discussions on thyagaraja in the WP Thyagaraja article, adding the URL containing discussions on ragas in the WP ragas article etc. Everything was directly relevant to the article. But it is WP policy not to add pages of forums in external links - this is what I learnt later. Is it called spamming? Would a spammer apologise for unintentionally going against WP's rules and explain what went wrong? Do you understand what I did before accusing me?-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 15:17, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi I am not accusing you of having malicious intent. Maybe you were not aware of my edits when you said I am not aware of rules regarding spamming. I know what is spamming, but this is not spamming. It's about placing completely relevant external links on related articles (directly relevant to the topic of the article). Wikipedia does not call it spamming although links to fora and websites associated with the editor are discouraged. Spamming means mass flooding with intent to compromise the integrity of wikipedia or post unrelated links which are not directly related to the topic or post commercial links which hold very little or no content for it to be useful to wikipedians. What I did is not spamming by any stretch. A spammer does not voluntarily identify himself or own up to his folly. I am sure you know this much. You asked "why no anonymous content edits?". I have done a lot of anonymous content edits, although it wont appear in the same IP address since I dont have static IP. As I said, I have been logging on regularly only from September this year although I registered a year ago. Do you want a list of the content edits I have done anonymously?. What I am trying to do here is a gentle reminder of the famous Thirukkural "thIyinAl sutta puN...", and I hope you dont have to defend all the bad behaviour of Venu62, who still offends me with intent by calling me a spammer. I know that you had asked Venu62 to stop the acrimony, but I feel you are falling in line with him in assuming bad intent and using his insults (even without intent to offend). That said, I have no need prove my credentials, but I have the right to not be called a spammer when I am not one. Venu62 is not all hunky dory and I have found what his character is, but I dont have to prove it to anyone else, nor is my goal to harp on the past. I am merely requesting you to not label anyone with the words of your friends. Please form your own judgement.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 01:28, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, you said "Kris, it takes a giant leap of faith (and probability too) to have all anonymous link addition edits to happen under a particular IP and content edits to happen under a different IP so neatly." I never said all my content edits come under a single IP address. Even all my link additions dont fall under a single IP, although I added the links in one day. I know fairly the articles which I have been editing and I can search the histories of those to get my edits. IPs of my edits usually start like 59.xx.xx. It doesnt mean all of them are the same IP address though. Please dont put words into my mouth that suit your preconceived notions (if any) and say that it requires giant leap of faith. I expected better understanding and expectation of good faith from you than from Venu62, but it looks that you are more interested in defending your friend than looking at the truth (sorry but no offense to you).-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 11:25, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, I did note that your post was meant to be a voice of reason against Venu62's acidic comments, but you repeated Venu62's words and said that I was not aware of "rules regarding spamming". When I said that I apologised for not knowing wikipedia's rules (not for spamming which was never what I did, nor my intent), you said I did spam, you had come to Venu62's conclusion. I replied to you that I know what spamming is and I did not behave like a spammer. I told you what I did and what I didn't in my defense. I told you I can locate my anon edits, but since you had probably prejudged me as a spammer, you seemed to misinterpret my saying by assuming that I had made all content edits under a single IP and link edits under another IP. I had made a RfC for my link edits for which I got no response. Does a spammer do that? Since you have probably made up your mind, I saw no more reason to prove either mine or the actions of Venu62.

I said whatever Venu62's neutrality is, he is not above error. You are particularly unwilling to doubt Venu62's neutrality, but let me tell you neutrality is not set in stone. Its a relative position and while Venu62 may be more neutral than some, he may not be more neutral than all. Particularly since you know less about me than perhaps about Venu62, you should not be comparing me with him and say that he is neutral before me. Perception of neutrality itself is subjective. Oh well, I have no wish to brainwash you. You can believe what you want but pls be aware that repeating others acidic remarks and terms can be offensive and more when you stand by such unintended offense. Cheers-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 11:52, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Its not my agenda either to villify Venu62 beyond what he himself is doing. NPOV itself is a perception, and what appears as NPOV to one need not be so to another. To you, he may be impartial, but to me he is definitely a hardcore linguistic chauvinist, though he may not appear so to you. When you yourself (whom I consider greatly more neutral than him) have declared your POV, how do you expect people to buy your assertion that he is neutral? Please understand that I participate on many websites about tamil and I run a very successful forum on Tamil elsewhere. I can definitely make out who is a linguistic chauvinist and who is not, and I deal with students and scholars on languages, on a daily basis. This does not mean you have to buy what I say, nor am I going to announce my feelings to the world, but your certificate is not going to do him any good as far as the CM article is concerned. He has declared his ignorance on CM related topics in Aadal's talk page, and is simply hanging around to harrass me (as I have shown with diffs) since I'm in his bad books.-- ॐ Kris ( talk | contribs) 16:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tamil words

Hello Sundar! I hope you had a good vacation and a wonderful deepavali. When you have some free time, could you take a look at these proposals for writing Tamil words in the Latin script and let me know what you think. You can comment directly against a proposal, or reply here, or on the talk page for the proposals as you prefer. I'd particularly appreciate your thoughts on the problem of representing ற். -- Arvind 21:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mediation

Hi Sundar, this is a difficult comment to write. If you would be so kind, please read User:BostonMA#Dbachmann's use of ethnic, national and religious attributes of editors when making negative criticisms. You may note that it has changed since we last discussed. I'm sorry to say that I think matters have come to the point where an RfC seems to be the only way forward in resolving this issue. Since you and I had talked, there had been another remark made, and I wrote to dab suggesting that we ask your assistance to mediate, but he did not reply to my suggestion. Now there has been another remark. Although I think dab is very useful as a contributor, I think his use of words has a very negative effect on the community, and the situation, has gotten to the point where I don't think it can be tolerated any more. Although I am concerned that dab may just walk out in frustration if there is an RfC, I can't see this continuing. It sets a very bad example and encourages hostility along racial, ethnic, religious lines. I am hoping that you might be able to open the lines of communication with dab, so that an RfC might be avoided. Whatever efforts you may take in this direction would be very much appreciated. With a heavy heart, sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 14:49, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Can you please wait till Monday when I become more available for this? If it's very urgent, please approach another mediator from WP:MEDCAB before you take recourse to an RfC. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I am in no hurry, nor do I wish you to be in a hurry. It is better to see if there is a way out of the situation. I would very much prefer that you mediate since you seem to have some rapport with dab, which might not be the case with a random editor from Mediation Cabal. --BostonMA ^talk 15:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] PTR

• His name is Palanivel Rajan spelt Palanivel not Palianivel as in P. T. R. Palianivel Rajan.Secondly his father was P. T. Rajan who also a ex chief minister which could led to confusion and in the press and media he is known as Palanivel Rajan hence redirected the page to Palanivel Rajan. thanks Harlowraman

Thanks Harlowraman. It should be P. T. R. Palanivel Rajan then. That's how he's known most in Madurai. Also, that's per WP:MOS. -- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 09:53, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your prompt response .I have also redirected Palanivel Rajan to P. T. R. Palanivel Rajan.I had updated from 27th oct correcting wrong facts like he was speaker from from 1991-1996 while he was the speaker from 1996-2001 with the relevant links and add some more relevant facts with external links Thank you Harlowraman

[edit] You have got mail

Hi! How are you? I sent u a mail. Please check. Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 16:54, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kochi

Ha Ha. I was going to write you a message on just that. Raul selected a different summary and pic from the one I had submitted. Too bad for your pic. ;-)--thunderboltz^(Deepu) 14:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] West Bengal talk clarification

Ref: Your query on West Bengal talk page if we need to mention the number of assembly constituencies and again the number of MLAs.

reply Well, number of Assembly Constituencies is 294 while that of MLAs is 295 (including one nominated from Anglo-Indian community). That's why it was thought that both should be mentioned. What do you think?--Dwaipayan (talk) 15:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sarvagnya=Gnanapiti

Please see this Mahawiki 18:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gentle reminder

Hi Sundar, it is quite possible that you are discussing the matter I brought up via email, so please forgive me if this reminder is unnecessary. However, I did not want this issue to fall through the cracks. Please let me know in a general way how things are progressing. Thanks --BostonMA ^talk 00:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, perhaps I was not clear enough in my previous message. I did not send you email. What I meant by my message above was this. I had not seen any discussion between you and the other party. However, I thought that you might have been communicating with him via email. If you had been communicating with him via email, that would explain why I had not seen any communication between you. If you have been communicating by email, that is good. Otherwise, I just wanted to give you a gentle reminder so that the issue would not be forgotten. I hope that has helped to clarify. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 05:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 05:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, there is no benefit in demanding an apology from someone who does not understand that an apology would be appropriate. Dab does not yet have that understanding, or perhaps he is too angry. So I do not expect an apology. What is important to me is for dab to stop referring to national, ethnic, and religious attributes of editors when making negative or critical comments. I include in this indirect references. By indirect references, I mean things like referring to a possible edit conflict with a Muslim editor as Jihad. I thank you once again for your assistance. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 13:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Message

Hi Sundar, thanx for this message of a long time ago. I have been on a prolonged break and hopefully will come back to editing by and by. Regards, ImpuMozhi 02:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh sundar! why did u delete it? delete all marathi mentions there delete all marathi transliterations plz.this will make kannada editors happy.bye Mahawiki 06:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Re:Noticeboard design

I was expecting that. :) I have restored old noticeboard title. Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 00:36, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bot

Hi Sundar, Can u start SundarBot in TW. --Sivakumar ^{\ Talk} 09:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Sundar, can't we change the Bot code to remember between sessions --Sivakumar ^{\ Talk} 11:10, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The NZ Tamil Bell

Sundar, I have been trying to get some information on the 'Tamil Bell' found in New Zealand. This is all I could gather so far. There is no evidence that this bell was indeed from the Chola period. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 05:59, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

More information and the possible source of the image. I don't think the photograph has been sourced properly. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 06:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't think we should be using it anywhere. The image is copyrighted to the NZ museum. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 06:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

The inscription on the brass bell in Tamil script says: "...மொயிதீன பக கபல உடைய மணி". This was found by an English explorer William Colenso in 1836 on the Ruapuke Beach on the north island of New Zealand. This bell was being used by the local Maoris as a cooking utensil. The date of the bell has not been confirmed. There is a suggestion that the ship to which the bell belonged was part of a larger Chinese fleet. The modern nature of the script and the fact that the wreck found on the Ruapuke beach is dated to belong to the ninteenth century rather than earlier, suggests that this is does not belong to the Chola period. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 08:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Browsers on Linux

Hi Sundar. I have previously tried to follow the instructions for Linux (I run Suse 10.1) but the uyirmey letters are persistently inverted. I should try the Tamillinux mailing list to see if they can help. -- Arvind 09:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Your efforts

Thank you so much for your efforts. I am saddened by the result. From your comment I assume that dab is either unwilling to make a committment to stop making references to the racial, ethnic, national or religious attributes of editors when he is making negative comments about those editors or their edits, or he is unwilling to discuss the matter with you.

I am now weighing whether to file an RfC. dab is a valuable resource to Wikipedia, is highly educated and a prolific contributor. My hope with regard to an RfC is that it would provide dab with community feedback regarding the use of racial, ethnic, national and religious attributes of editors when making negative comments. My hope is that the community would convey to dab that such comments are unnecessary, and inappropriate in the Wikipedia community. It is my hope that dab will receive such feedback from editors whom he respects. I known that there is some anger toward dab. My hope is that an RfC would not used as a vehicle for revenge or harrassment. Rather, I hope that community would clearly and sternly refocus editors who may be tempted to use the RfC for purposes other than to give dab the feedback described above. I am not yet committed to filing an RfC, and seek the input of others. I am especially eager to hear considerations that might dissuade me from an RfC. I do have a concern that dab may choose to leave Wikipedia. However, my current feeling is that the risk involved is outweighed by the need for DBachmann to receive clear feedback, especially from editors whom he respects.

I would very much appreciate your thoughts. As you suggested, I will send you an email address later today (US time) so that you may express your thoughts confidentially. Once again, I appreciate and thank you for your efforts. Sincerely, --BostonMA ^talk 14:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NZ Bell

I am not sure about the source, I got it by email and thought I could use it on a relevant article here. You can delete it if its against some copyright law. I got the date of the bell from http://www.zealand.org.nz/history.htm (click the "radical" button on the left)-- ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 17:07, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

OK. But how does a chinese ship carry a Tamil bell --- doesnt seem to be too much in line with history or logic. Radical means just radical finds, not altered history. Anyway I understood now that I cant put doubtful images on GDFL. Thanks for that bit of info. -- ॐ Kris (☎ talk | contribs) 10:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Hey Sundar, thanks a lot for your support to my RFA... Had it not been for your initial encouragement, my DYKs would never have happened and if they had not happened, then in all probability this RFA would have sunk:) So thank you doubly! -- Lost^(talk) 12:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] History of Tamil Nadu - Thanks

Sundar Thanks for correcting the mistakes in the current politics. I got that from the reference cited. I guess the information is wrong. I don't keep myself informed of the TN politics. I appreciate any corrects/inputs. I'm not sure whether the information on the current history is sufficience for completion of the article. I think we can move to FAC soon, don't you? Cheers Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 08:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sundar, If you can can you please look at the last para in the article:

Several changes to the political balance in Tamil Nadu took place during the later half of the 1990s, eventually leading to the demise of the duopoly of DMK and AIADMK in the politics of Tamil Nadu. In 1996, a split in the Congress party in Tamil Nadu eventuated in the formation of Tamil Maanila Congress (TMC). TMC aligned with the DMK, while another party MDMK, split from DMK aligned with the AIADMK. These and several smaller political parties began to gain popular support. The first instance of a 'grand alliance' was during the 1996 elections for the National parliament, during which the AIADMK formed a large coalition of a number smaller parties to counter the electoral threat posed by the alliance between the DMK and TMC. Since then the formation of alliances of large number of political parties has become an electoral practice in Tamil Nadu.[66] The electoral decline of Congress party at the Fedral level which started during the early 1990, forced the Congress to seek coalition partners from various states including Tamil Nadu, paving way for the Dravidian parties to be part of the Centreal Governement.[67]

I think it can do with some improvement in readability. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 10:03, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Sundar, possibly Polotical history of Tamil Nadu would be appropriate, but there is information on the society in general throughout the article. The only thing it lacks is perhaps the cultural history. I'm not sure whether we need to move the article though. I don't want the article to be overwhelming. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 03:02, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] re:RfA

I'm surprised you're surprised. IMO, modesty is not a virtue - I tell it like it is. W/o ur support, I wouldn't have half the FAs I've written and would still be "temperamentally unsuitable." Rama's arrow 16:09, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sundar would say: missed ([4]) but he never misses anything! And, a big hellow to Sundar and you. --Bhadani 16:15, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google hits must not be taken as a yardstick in Asian related AfD's

Google hits must not be taken as a sole yardstick in Asian related AfD's. Newspapers of Vernacular Languages may have millions of readership. For example, in India every state has its own language. There are more than 20 widely speaking native languages in India. But the news reports from the newspapers of such languages are not available in google search.Take the case of Malayala Manorama Newspaper. Currently this Malayalam language newspaper has a readership of over 9 million, with a circulation base of over 1.4 million copies according to Audit Beureu of Circulations. Manorama is one of the India's largest selling and most widely read news paper. There are more than 50 such newspapers in India. News reports from such dailies are not available in google eventhough it have millions of readership. But news reports from English dailies with 1000 or 2000 copies are available in google search. It is really misleading...Isn't it...? In this context of notability tests based on google hits may be a worthless, foolish effort. In such circumstances we must consider the words of native wikipedians with more importance. May I know ur valuable opinion ……?  Nileena joseph ^{(Talk|Contribs)} 05:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talk page

No problem. Yeah, the talk page was left redirected because I forgot to finish archiving. Thanks for pointing this out. Saravask 06:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Quoting Exact line

I dont have the book with me, now to provide you the exact line.-Bharatveer 09:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

WHy do you need exact line, page number is given there.-Bharatveer 09:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you want to verify that quote; You will have to do it by yourself.It will be good if you can buy one or else try searching in web .There are some papers which uses this shastri's quote.-Bharatveer 09:50, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sastri's book

Hi Sundar, I have Sastri's A History of South India (1955) OUP (reprinted 2000). The page number for BV's citation in the book I have is in page 117. The context is the the so-called Aryan influeces in the ancient Tamil Nadu. It states:

The presence of a great fire underneath the ocean, Uttarakeru (the northern country) as a land of perpetual enjoyment, Arundhathi as the ideal of chastity, the concept of the threefold debt (rinatraya) with which every man is born, the beliefs that the cakora bird feeds only on raindrops, and that raindrops turn into perals in particular circumstances are instances of other sanskritic ideas taken over bodily into the literature of the Sangam period. The Tolkapplyam is said to have been modelled on the Sanskrit grammar of the Aindra school.

In other words, this is simply a throwaway line by Sastri with no elaboration on the subject. I hope this helps. Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 10:06, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately it has become a habit of certain editors to try and find ways to somehow try and diminish anything to do with Tamil or Tamil culture. You can see such activities in Carnatic music, Sangam, Sangam literature, Early Cholas, etc. They will try and find even the remotest quote to support their ideology! - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 10:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Carnatic music article talk pages would surely speak for themselves regarding the habits of some editors here.It is very fortunate that we have some sane Tamil editors like User:kris who can handle such habitual tamil pov pushers in Wikipedia -Bharatveer 14:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Couldnt help butting in. That the Tolk., is based on the Aindra school shouldnt really be news. Not just Shastri, but several authors have made mentions of this(easily googleable or searchable in any library). And these authors havent just stated their opinions in 'throwaway' lines like our friend above would like to believe, but they are merely echoing what the Tolk., itself says about the Tolk., in the Preface itself. So should we conclude that Tolk., itself has 'throwaway' lines about Tolk.,!

Not only is the Tolk., based on the Aindra school of Sanskrit grammar, but it is even named partly in Sanskrit! kaappiyam is very clearly a tadbhava of kavya and even this is attested by many authors. Also easily googleable. Micheldanino's site might be a good place to start.

As for the other articles mentioned(Carnatic, Sangam etc.,.) I took a look at it and I only found that some people are trying to pass off fiction, mythology and legend for recorded history while others are fighting such POV pushing. Sarvagnya 16:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Michael Danino simply reproduces Sastri's throwaway line without ealaboration either. I see where BV got his second hand reference from. It is good to actually get hold of Sastri's book and read it before trying to insert out of context citations in articles when trying to push POV and ideology. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 19:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

According to A Concise History of Classical Sanskrit Literature, By Gaurinath Shastri, The Aindra schools of Sanskrit grammarians was one of a dozen or so ancient sanskrit schools 'each of which is represented by a reputed writer or established reputation'. Indra, or Aindra is mentioned as the first of the grammarians. This was later subplanted by Panini's schools of grammar.

I read a parallel to the legend that Tolkappiyam is based on Agattiyam, the grammar book written by Agastya and that Tolkappiyar was a student of Agastya.

Was there an ancient Aindra school of grammar? Taittiriya samhita (6.4.7) connects the vedic god Indra to the origin of grammar: "Speech indeed spoke formerly without manifestation (avya krta). The gods said to Indra: 'do manifest this speech forus'... Indra approaching it from the middle made it manifest. Therefore speech is manifest (vya krta)" - From Patanjali's introduction to the Mahabhashya, quoted in Staal, J.F., "Sanskrit Philosophy of Language", Current Trends in Linguistics, 5, pp. 499-531, 1969.

Panini: a survey of research By George Cardona states that there is no proof that there was indeed an Aindra school of grammar. It also states that this legend was concocted to state that Panini's work was based on older grammatical works of divine origins. It quotes Patanjali's Mahabhasya: '...Bhraspati proclaimed to Indra for a thousand heaven years a complete text of words listed individually and yet he did not get to teh end' (evam hi sruyate: brhaspatir indraya divyam varsa-sahasram prati-paroktanam sabdanam sabda-parayanam provaca nantam jagama. On the bases of such passages, it has been supposed that there was a grammar (vyakarana) by Indra (hence called Aindra), the pupil of Brahaspati.

Conclusion: Sastri's claim is simply a means to note that Tolkappiyam was ancient by alluding to the legends that it was based on the grammar of Agastya and Indra. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 00:54, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The claim by Sarvagnya that Tolkappiyam itself claims in its 'introduction' that it was based on the Sanskrit grammar of Aindra is also blatently false. According to Tamil Love Poetry and Poetics, By Takanobu Takahashi, this is mentioned in the commentaries by Ilampuranar (12 century CE). The exact quote in Tamil is aintiram nirainta Tolkappiyan from Ilamuranar's Cirappu payiram to the annotation. It was interpretted later by Naccinarkiniyar in the 14th century in his commentray on the Ilampuranar's annotation. He wrote '[he] who is well vered in the aindra grammar is of the old vilalge of kappiya', which means, according to Naccinarkiniyar, an ancient Brahmin family of Kavya gotra. There is no further information on where these annotators got that information. - Parthi ^{talk/contribs} 01:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image copyrights

Sundar, Can you please check this and confirm if my understanding of the image copyrights is correct? Thanks, Ganeshk (talk) 23:01, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Until yesterday I thought I had a good understanding of fairuse. Now I have to learnt it from sctrach. :( -- Ganeshk (talk) 23:01, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks very much my dear brother, Sundar

My name is Krishna Chaitanya. It was me who wrote completely the article "An Explanation for thy argument" in the talk page of the artcile Sanskrit. I feel that the talk page should be informative rather than argumentative. I dont know who wrote "It is not the nationwide language dears" in Talk page. I felt appalling about it and wrote an explanation for it. Thanks for finding the real one who wrote it. -User:Bsskchaitanya 12.48 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requesting help in Bot creation for marathi language Wikipedia

Dear Sundar, Here at Marathi Language Wikipedia want to use bots for spell check and correction of Devanagari Letters used in Marathi words; for example we want to replace 'ई.स.' from all article because gramaticaly it is wrong , we want to replace the same with correct version 'इ.स.' Another example is we want to replace wrong spell आणी with correct one आणि.

We will apreciate any help coming in, in this regard.Our relevant page for Bots in Marathi wikipedia is सांगकाम्या, Vilaage Pump discussion page is atविकिपीडिआ:चावडी/प्रगती and Wikipedia Embassy is at आंतरविकि दूतावास

Regards Mahitgar 08:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks for useful help

Dear Mr.Sundar, Many Many thanks for your valuable suggestion and prompt support. I will keep in touch with you and get back to you if I get any queries.

Reagrds Mahitgar 14:17, 16 November 2006 (UTC)