Talk:Thailand

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Contents 1 Demographic Section needs to be looked at 2 September 19, 2006 Coup 3 Sex Trade? 4 Thai Gem Scam 5 Editing 6 Map with Myanmar 7 Thailand's coat of arms 8 Bangkok AID 9 Copyright status of Thai government publications 10 Simplification of History 10.1 Anarchy 11 Majority ethnic group 12 Whoops 13 Japan? 14 Completely unsourced and uncited 15 Historical context after the coup 16 Thai characters prevent line wrapping 17 Pronunciation: Narai Ratcha Niwet? 18 WWII Fighting with Japan and France

[edit] Demographic Section needs to be looked at

I am not sure what to make of the demographic section. The Thai People entry says that tai people are the dominent ethnic group in Thailand, while the demographic section in the page says it's the Lao people. So which one is it?

Tai people include Lao, Central Thai, and many other groups. I agree that this section needs to be revised. The first part of it is simply inaccurate. Ethic Lao/Isan do NOT make up over half the population of the nation. The demographics article says that native speakers of Isan or Lao is 34.2% of the population. They outnumber native speakers of central Thai by only 0.5%, not to mention the facts that Lao-speakers typically also speak Central Thai, while Central Thai speakers do not speak Lao. It is simply misleading to say "Thailand's population is dominated by ethnic Lao." --Vincecny 16:17, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Vincencny. Kuson

[edit] September 19, 2006 Coup

Removed the NPOV opening clause of the 9/19/06 section..."even though the army promised" Tarpy 20:03, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sex Trade?

No discussion of the sex trade, and exploitation of women and children? (not to mention young boys) Isn't it analagous to the "beer that made Milwaukee famous"? No mention of the sex tourists? Is this some kind of whitewash? Porphyria 05:00, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

In contrast what the tabloid media try to make everyone believe, Thailand is much more than the sex business - but as "sex sells" you'll see much more stories about it than e.g. about the political situation in Thailand. And most tourists that visit Thailand aren't sex tourists, even though the percentage of sex tourists is probably higher than e.g. for those visiting Japan. But anyway. it is of course one aspect of the country, that's why we have the article Prostitution in Thailand, but IMHO it doesn't need to be mentioned with much higher prominence. andy 11:03, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Sex tourism is among one of the major issue in Thailand, but is NOT the primary. As with many other topic, anything controversial is likely to be popular. I agree with Ahoerstemeier that most of tourists in Thailand isn't go there just for sex; it's merely one aspect of the industry. --Underexpose 00:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

There is sex trade everywhere in the world!! If one is included in article about Thailand, that same statement should be included in New-York article as well. dhanakorn 00:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

**There is more prostitution per captita in the US then there is in Thailand. Does the US page mention it?** —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.170.83.72 (talk • contribs) 04:37, 12 July 2005 (UTC).

**Exactly, then shut up. Stop picking on Thailand just because it's in Asia.** —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.196.235.246 (talk • contribs) 20:50, 4 January 2006 (UTC).

Then write that, add a section writing about how Thailand is mistreated in media, cite some sources. Voila.--NoNo 03:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thai Gem Scam

Though Thai Gem Scam does exist in bangkok and other large city in Thailand; I don't believe that it is a primary issue presenting in Thailand. Should it be move to topic "issue" or something? I don't think it is appropriate to place it under "Misc topic". What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Underexpose (talk • contribs) 23:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

-- I agree, is a detail, not a primary major heading representing Thailand, though definitely a disgrace and a clue of corruption effecting not only Thai people. Agree, it should be a link to a topic of its own --Kuson--Kuson 03:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)13th Nov 2006

[edit] Editing

Please remember that Wikipedia is an international resource and that the use of either British English, American English, or any other variety is acceptable. Editing out words from one variety of English with an exact synonym from another is counter-productive and stupid. Henry, Soccer means association football. Please refer to the wikipedia definition of such for further clarification. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.145.110.211 (talk • contribs) 13:38, 30 June 2006 (UTC).

Belated reply: I seem to have started a minor revert war back then. My rationale was that the sport's known as football in Thailand. Paul C 12:15, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Map with Myanmar

I think it would be the PC thing to do to include a map with myanmar instead of burma as thailand's neighbor mostly because if they want to be called myanmar, who are we to say no? So I found a few but I figured before changing it I'll put up some options!

1.[1] 2.[2] 3.[3]

personally I think i go with #2. I'm kind of a newb though so if someone who prefers one ot another could also tell me how to change it if it's not going to be obvious, i'd be grateful! user:omishark 05:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hell no. Following the diktats of murderous thugs is not PC. In any case, the current map is used because it's PD- we can't just steal content from other websites. Henry^Flower 07:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The English name of Myanmar is Burma, just as the English name of Muang Thai is Thailand. Maps from the CIA Fact Book are not copyright. Adam 09:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a bit more complicate issue which even has it's separate article Explanation of the names of Burma/Myanmar. But as here the article on the country is at Myanmar IMHO the map should be changed accordingly - we don't need to follow the US to ignore the name (or actually it's a more like a spelling change) for political reasons. andy 12:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not more complicated at all. The country's name in Burmese has always been Myanmar, while its name in English has always been Burma. The Burmese government announced in 1989 that henceforth the country's English name would be Mynanmar. But that government has no more right to dictate English usage than the German government would have to demand that we call Germany Deutschland. English usage is a matter for English-speakers, not Burmese dictators. Adam 13:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If Germany asked for those who speak English to call their country Deutschland I seriously doubt any english speaking country would simply say "no." This matter has a lot more to do with politics and the USA's relationship with Myanmar than who has the right to change the English name of their country. What should be considered is: if Myanmar doesn't have the right than what country does? Can the USA decide to call Myanmar something completely different then without their consent as well? You don't have to necessarily respect those in charge but they do have the necessary authority to specify what the name of their country is, in any language. Omishark 17:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The people of Burma have the right to call their country anything they like. If a democratically elected Burmese government announced that the country was now called Xakghwui, that is what I would call it. But the democratically elected leader of Burma, Aung San Suu Kyi, calls the country Burma, and so long as she does so, so should everyone else. The gang of murderers currently in control of Burma have no right to decide anything. Adam 00:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Burmese passports say Myanmar on them. That little plaque at the United Nations General Assembly room says Myanmar on it. Just because certain individuals don't recognize the legitimacy of the military regime doesn't mean that Wikipedia should use the antiquated name for it. The fact that unelected dictator Marshal Phibulsongram changed the name of the Siam to Thailand didn't stop people from using Thailand. Patiwat 22:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That was an actual change to the name of the country. This is a question of whether to use the Burmese language name (Myanmar) or the English name (Burma). The equivalent would have been a military regime in Thailand, having annulled a democratic election and locked up the country's elected leader, demanding that the English-speaking world call Thailand "Muang Thai." Adam 03:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thailand's coat of arms

There is some controversy, started in the Bhumibol article about Thailand's coat of arms. The image shown at "Coat of arms of Thailand.png" is not the Thai coat of arms. It is just a generic garuda. The wings are wrong. The toes are wrong. The ornamentation is wrong. The face is wrong. I have deleted the image from the infobox until we can find a free license COA. Patiwat 18:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Deleting the COA parameters screws up the Country Infobox. Could somebody else who has better editing skills make this edit for me. Patiwat 18:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I temporarily put the old image in its place; should be at least better than a glaring red cross. Paul C 20:32, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

th:Image:Emblem thailand garuda1.gif seems to be the correct representation Patiwat is referring to. It's uploaded there under fair use now, but perhaps someone would like to look into the copyright status of the image? Paul C 09:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bangkok AID

Wikipedia:Article Improvement Drive is featuring the article Bangkok as a candidate for the Article improvement Drive. Vote if you wish! Felixboy 14:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright status of Thai government publications

Could somebody explain (or point me to some source documents) that explain what the copyright status of Thai government publications is? Specifically, are all Thai government documents by law considered to be in the public domain (like in the US)? Also, does this include contents on Thai government websites? Patiwat 01:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

According to wikisource:th:พระราชบัญญัติลิขสิทธิ์ พ.ศ. ๒๕๓๗#มาตรา ๗,

สิ่งต่อไปนี้ไม่ถือว่าเป็นงานอันมีลิขสิทธิ์ตามพระราชบัญญัตินี้
(๑)ข่าวประจำวัน และข้อเท็จจริงต่างๆ ที่มีลักษณะเป็นเพียงข่าวสารอันมิใช่งานในแผนกวรรณคดี แผนกวิทยาศาสตร์ หรือแผนกศิลปะ
(๒)รัฐธรรมนูญ และกฎหมาย
(๓)ระเบียบ ข้อบังคับ ประกาศ คำสั่ง คำชี้แจง และหนังสือโต้ตอบของกระทรวง ทบวง กรม หรือหน่วยงานอื่นใดของรัฐหรือของท้องถิ่น
(๔)คำพิพากษา คำสั่ง คำวินิจฉัย และรายงานของทางราชการ
(๕)คำแปลและการรวบรวมสิ่งต่าง ๆ ตาม (๑) ถึง (๔) ที่กระทรวง ทบวง กรม หรือหน่วยงานอื่นใดของรัฐหรือของท้องถิ่นจัดทำขึ้น

Paul C 21:29, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Great! Thanks a bunch. Although it doesn't specifically cover government websites, I think that point 3 can reasonably be interpretted to include websites. This has a big influence on how images from government websites can be used in Wikipedia. Patiwat 22:50, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been giving that law a read in some detail, and would appreciat it if you could tell me how article 7 does or does not conflict with article 14, which states

กระทรวง ทบวง กรม หรือหน่วยงานอื่นใดของรัฐหรือของท้องถิ่นย่อมมีลิขสิทธิ์ในงานที่ได้สร้างสรรค์ขึ้นโดยการจ้างหรือตามคำสั่งหรือในความควบคุมของตน เว้นแต่จะได้ตกลงกันไว้เป็นอย่างอื่นเป็นลายลักษณ์อักษร

This appears to grant any state agency the copyright over any of its creative work. Is there therefore a difference between "creative work" (งานที่ได้สร้างสรรค์ขึ้น) and publications (e.g., ระเบียบ ข้อบังคับ ประกาศ คำสั่ง คำชี้แจง และหนังสือโต้ตอบ, ระเบียบ ข้อบังคับ ประกาศ คำสั่ง คำชี้แจง และหนังสือโต้ตอบ, รัฐธรรมนูญ และกฎหมาย, etc.)? Patiwat 23:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Simplification of History

Thailand was never colonised by a European power. There are two main reasons for this. First, it was left as a buffer state between parts of Asia that were colonised by the French and the British.

• The Simplification of history continues, as a history buff I'm pretty sure the British and the French would have taken more out of Thailand, if they were able to.

Devraj Singh 11:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• They didn't do it because they were "nice." They did it because it was in both their mutual self interest. After the last French and British territorial grab in 1909, they decided to retain Siam as a buffer state because the rising threat of Germany in Europe led them to a mutual desire to settle their differences in the colonial world. If France and Britain had wanted to partition Siam at that time they could have done so very easily. Please spare us cheap sarcasm, it is very overused at Wikipedia, and wins no arguments. Adam 11:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, I took out the Cheap Sarcasm bit. I am aware of the concession of the 3 Southern Provinces to the British in 1909, and the loss of the land east of the Mekong to the French from 1893-1907. I am also quite aware of the history of Europe prior to world war I. Thought of the Berlin-Baghdad railway must have been quite unnerving for the British and the French to say the least. By the way What reference do you have to your claim? If France and Britain had wanted to partition Siam at that time they could have done so very easily. The simplification was bad enough in my opinion, which was the reason why I raised the issue, and now this.Devraj Singh 11:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

"In the first decade of the 20th century, conditions were much improved for a final settlement with Britain and France... Anglo-French rivalry had abated with the exhaustion of new opportunities, the necessity of concentrating on current possessions, and the increasing dangers of the situation in Europe." (David K Wyatt, Thailand: a Short History, 190)

Before World War I Britain and France were two of the world's leading military powers, and Britain was the world's leading naval power. Siam was a semi-feudal third-world comic-opera kingdom (no offence). The French alone defeated them with little difficulty in 1893. If the two powers had decided to partition Siam, they could have done so in a few months. Adam 12:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly the British and the French were never able to do so, so the issue (of the sentence I objected) is based on an 'If' scenario written by a non-Thai. Ok, well that pretty much explains it. 'If'.

As I said earlier, I am quite aware of the situation in Europe or conditions of European armies prior to the advent of WWI. However, I also feel that most Thais would find your (further) simplification of siam as a 'semi-feudal third-world comic-opera kingdom' quite offensive. Not so much the 'Semi-feudal' bit or the 'thirdworld' bit (nothing wrong with that, in my opinion), but the 'Comic-opera Kingdom' bit (so much with sparing Cheap Sarcasms in wikipedia..). Seems that I sense some Eurocentrism here.Devraj Singh 13:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• It is untrue that they were "never able to do so." They never tried to do so, for reasons I have explained and given a source for, as requested.
• 19th century Siam has been the subject of a comic opera (The King and I), as I'm sure you know.
• As for Eurocentrism, it was a Eurocentric era - why else is Chulalongkorn a national hero for Europeanising Siam as fast as he could? Adam 13:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

They were never able to do so because they never tried to do so, they never tried to do so because they were never able to do so, both are equally true in my opinion. As you said, in those days modernization meant westernization, until recently it was either capitalism or socialism, Left or Right, democracy or feudalism, today we are in a post-modern age and the boundaries are startinig to disappear. In many ways it is still a eurocentrist era, albeit Neo-liberalism has passed its peak (how much worst could it get for the world’s poor..).

For any Ruler in any age, the greatest honour is to follow one’s duty. King, Rama V and his predecessors are greatly honoured not only for their ability to uphold the nation’s sovereignty in the age of Colonialism but also for the upholding of Dharma in accordance to Thai belief.

I actually heard about this (buffer state) theory from my history teacher (an Australian, of Polish descent) many years back. I objected to it back then, and I felt inclined to do so again today. Therefore from a historian’s (realpolitik?) perspective I can see where you are coming from. However, it may seem less biased if there were some sort of official consensus/document between (or by)the British and the French to back up this claim, (rather than a general perception based on a short history of Thailand text). Since there is none, I still feel that this view is being imposed upon Thailand by eurocentrist history, I have thus made small changes in the section, from:

First, it was left as a buffer state between parts of Asia that were colonised by the French and the British. Second, Thailand had a series of very able rulers in the 1800s.

To:

First, Thailand had a series of very able rulers in the 1800s. Secondly, it was able to exploit the tension and rivalry between the French and the British and thus remained as a buffer state between parts of S.E.Asia that were colonised by the two colonial powers.

Regards, Devraj Singh 19:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't for a moment dispute that Siam had two very able rulers in Rama IV and V. That is also the view of Wyatt, whom I cited above. (See his essay "King Chulalongkorn the Great: Founder of Modern Thailand" in his Sudies in Thai History, 273). But as he makes clear, the main evidence of their ability was their perception that Siam must westernise as rapidly as possible it was to avoid the fate of the Vietnamese states and Burma, which had historically been stronger military powers than Siam. The Japanese were the only other Asian state to grasp this fact in time. I don't think it is correct to say that Rama V was able to "exploit the tension and rivalry between the French and the British" - he certainly tried to, but the British were no help to him at all when the French made their demands in 1893. What led to the final settlement in 1909 was not Rama V's diplomatic skills, but the desire of Britain and France to settle their differences in the region and concentrate on European affairs. Siam was the fortunate beneficiary of this, and would have been so even if its king was a complete blockhead. Adam 06:03, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Let any unbiased historian decide for himself whether Siam was a mere beneficiary of this or the extent of the King's role in ensuring the nation's sovereignty, regards Devraj Singh 08:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Anarchy

Has the situation in Thailand really deteriorated so significantly that the countries government can be described as Anarchy. I would hope that Thailand is not in the same situation as anarchical Somalia. Someone with more enlightment on the subject could determine whether Anarchy is the best description of Thailand's current government situation. It currently describes it as such in the infobox. Basser g 17:21, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the word Anarchy anywhere in the infobox. Zazaban 22:56, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Check: 2006 Thailand coup, Devraj Singh 08:54, 22 September 2006 (UTC).

Anarchy means two things: the political ideaology, and a situation of chaos. The latter may likely, but the first is not. Therefore, the government cannot be called an Anarchy - but rather a junta or still a democracy - but you can say the political situation is in anarchy. However, I wish to further add that there is no chaos currently occuring within Thailand apart from the brief coup and even Thaksin hasn't fought back. So, no. No anarchy occuring within Thailand either. Ariedartin JECJY ^Talk 14:14, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Majority ethnic group

The intro says that Thai are the majority ethnic group. But the Demographics says that the Lao/Isan are. Which is it? Could we get some cites for this, to avoid edit wars? Ashmoo 02:25, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

It is a highly politicized, but not completely inaccurate, way of stating things. Lao/Northeasterners/Isaan people haven't been considered a separate ethnicity by the government since the early 1900's, when Rama VI and subsequent fascist dictatorships shaped the myth that all the people of Thailand were of one ethnicity: Thai. Today, most people don't consider Lao a separate ethnicity - but if they did, they would probably consider Northerners, Southerners, Chinese, and Muslims as separate ethnicities as well. Patiwat 02:45, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whoops

Sorry for the double popups revert, I'm busy reverting an IP who is spamming links to his forum, and I'm becoming a bot... Yandman 12:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japan?

Thailand's origin is traditionally tied to the short-lived kingdom of Sukhothai founded in 1238, after which the larger kingdom of Ayutthaya was established in the mid-14th century. Thai culture was greatly influenced by Cambodia, Japan and India.

Most people know that much of Thailand's culture and power in S.E. Asia was inherited through Cambodia along with much influence of India and China. So the above sentence must have been some kind of Joke. There was quite a lively Japanese community in Siam during the Ayutthaya period, remains of the Japanese quarters is still to be found amidst the monuments of Ayutthaya. Ayutthaya Kings also enjoyed the employment of Japanse mercenaries in their armies, particularly after the end of the civil war period in Japan at the end of the 16th century, check:[[4]].

For this reason, I have obviously changed the sentence to:

The origin of the Siam/Thailand is traditionally tied to the short-lived kingdom of Sukhothai founded in 1238 after which the larger kingdom of Ayutthaya was established in the mid-14th century. Thai culture was greatly influenced by Cambodia, China and India, although various indegenous cultures have existed in the area since the the early bronze age from the time of Ban Chiang (4420 BC-3400 BC) onwards.

-Devraj Singh

The article on Ban Chiang says that the original dates for that culture were estimated at 4420 BC - 3400 BC (based on thermoluminescence), but that radiocarbon dating revised the estimates to around 2100 BC. So, I think we should drop the dates and just say that indigenous cultures have existed since the time of Ban Chiang. I'm not an expert. I just noticed the discrepancy when I read the two articles. Does someone else have an opinion?

--Wechselstrom 05:28, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Completely unsourced and uncited

This article is without sources and is not cited.—Who123 12:42, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Historical context after the coup

This article is one of several articles that will go through a contextual crisis in the aftermath of the 2006 Thailand coup. The junta has promised a new Constitution, which implies a different form of government with different institutions. If you take the junta's word for it, the deficiencies of the 1997 People's Constitution (No. XVI) were so significant that major changes will need to occur in Constitution XVII.

With that being said, after Constitution XVII comes out, should this article still retain any information about the forms and institutions of the government based on the 1997 Constitution? If not, should the content just be deleted? Or should it be moved to a different article? Or should information about the Constitution XVI, XV, XIV, ... governments be kept in this article?

p.s., These questions also apply for the Politics of Thailand article, the List of political parties in Thailand article, the National Assembly of Thailand article, and a couple of others as well. Patiwat 02:55, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Put the old info in a section about recent history.

[edit] Thai characters prevent line wrapping

In my browser, Thai characters prevent lines from wrapping when they are rendered. The browser is Firefox 1.5.0.3 (renderer Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.8.0.3) Gecko/20060523 Ubuntu/dapper Firefox/1.5.0.3). I do not have access to other renderers to try this with. The wrapping is prevented both in view mdoe and in edit mode. It results in lines about 10 pages long. Thai words also break onto a new line after a preceding parenthesis that stays on the preceding line. It can be fixed temporarily by manually breaking the line after a thai word and joining it back, but when it is re-rendered, it is again not wrapped. Apparently, this is known to the Mozilla team: http://www.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla1.8b1/known-issues-int.html -Pgan002 22:47, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation: Narai Ratcha Niwet?

Does anybody know, how to pronounce the Name of the Temple "Narai Ratcha Niwet"? Or do you know where I can find help on that matter? I'm writing a TV-Text on that matter and need to be able to tell the narrator how to pronounce it.

[edit] WWII Fighting with Japan and France

I think some text should be added regarding Thailand's brief wars with French forces in Indochina, and with Thailand's usual ally the Japanese. I'm going to dig up a little on that subject and see if I can put together something worthwhile. Boris B 07:26, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't realize there was a separate "History of Thailand (1932-1973)" article. Boris B 08:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)