Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild

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Archive
Archives

Chronological Archive:

  1. Archive 1: October 2005 - December 2005
  2. Archive 2: January 2006 - September 2006

Contents

[edit] Member introductions

[edit] Open tasks for the Islam Wikiproject

I propose to make something like Wikipedia:WikiProject_Iran#To_do_list for this wikiproject. For example some issues like ‎Tawhid, Islamic concept of God and Allah need more works. So members can be aware by this way. Also members can be aware about POV articles, editorial wars and so on. --Sa.vakilian 15:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

  • I think the Islam Open Tasks is a great idea for organizing Islam related articles. I think that the [section](also see the list of articles could be merged into the Islam Open Tasks.
Open tasks for the Islam Wikiproject
[edit ]
Top priorities
[edit ]
Cleanup /
Wikify
[edit ]
Missing articles
[edit ]
Expansion
  • Revelation in Islam

or Revelation of Qur'an(Wahy)

  • Standard Qur'an
[edit ]
Merges
[edit ]
Discussions
[edit ]
Maps, Pictures, Timelines, etc
Template:Islam and China
[edit ] POV and disputed articles [edit ] Vandalism

Also we can use this tag in the talk pages of related articles.

Islam

This article is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam, a WikiProject related to the Islam.

It has been rated - on the quality scale.


??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
Islam articles
Quality
Featured article FA 2
A 1
Good article GA 1
B 13
Start 17
Stub 16
Unassessed 4
Importance
Top 12
High 17
Mid 12
Low 10
Total: 54


[edit] Attacks

Brothers in Islam, user Hkelkar has a very bad impression on islamic issues and some of the following are said by him

1 He calls muslims as Mohammedan, i tired to tell him it is an insult to islam by making such a remark, he says he is right and i have given him "proofs" regarding this matter but he wont listen and still uses those remarks. Shezaad786 and me tired to explain but he does not listen.

2 "Man Transformed into Apes and Pigs" (per the Koran) Jew. I said to him again there is no such thing in the holy Quran i.e in chapter 7, AL-ARAF (THE HEIGHTS) and chapter 2, The Cow. i tired to explain that he has misunderstood and misinterpreted the terms, but again he wont listen. BhaiSaab and me tired to explain him but as usual he would not listen to us.

3 "No Arab can ever beat a Jew"

4 now he taken a new turn "caste system in islam" Street Scholar and me tired to tell him that there is no such type of issue in islam and it is agianst the principles of islam.


His remarks are certainly NPOV, No personal attacks , civility etc. Can anyone pls help out in teaching islam to this user and is there any way i can complain this guy and ban him by using wiki. I have exams in a few days time so i wont be available on wiki for a few days.

Mujeerkhan 13:09, October 7 (UTC)

In the case of a dispute, you might find it helpful to bring in an admin to resolve matters. Do be reminded that not all Wikipedians have or are capable of having a worldly view and I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone to exercise patience. :) Ariedartin JECJY Talk 07:41, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Well all my edits have been sourced and followed wikipedia policy of WP:RS and WP:V. I am engaged in a dispute resolution process with Mujeerkhan regarding his whitewashing of the persecution of Tipu Sultan and have cited several sources (called "books") to that effect. In addition, I am currently engaged in a dispute with Street Scholar on Talk:Cheema where he has been citing bogus references and I have exposed him accordingly. So I suspect that this is another sad attempt by our friend to form a coterie with some misguided members of this "Muslim Guild". By all means, go ahead and start your noisemaking, personal attacks, racial and religious slurs, mass reverts, McCarthyist witch hunts and general incivility as is the typical tactic here. All that gives me is more ammunition to use and get disruptive editors appropriately censured. Everything is recorded and I will meticulously collect all the little tidbits that such editors may throw out.
Intimidation tactics won't work on me. Of course, if an editor wishes to discuss matter with civility and a scholarly disposition then I welcome him with open arms, so to speak. Like my interactions with Guildsman User:Tigeroo which have been fairly positive so far as he has followed wikipedia policy and has been very receptive to sourced edits and has raised some interesting points on Talk:Muhammad bin Qasim; I presently consider him a good faith editor. I have little patience for fanatics and whiny kooks. Where are the abu-Sinas ,al-Farabis and al-Khwarzims of this Muslim Guild anyway? At least one could talk to them!
I have several mediators involved in such matters and am confident that no amount of wailing and niggling on the part of the partisan editors (Mujeerkhan's "fellow brothers in Islam" indeed!) will detract from the facts being mentioned. The opinions, dialectics and insulting perorations of some of the Muslim guild members are irrelevant in the face of the verifiable information.
Bear in mind that I have access to a rather vast plethora of scholarly papers, journals, texts etc. using my university subscription and fully intend to use that ability to make wikipedia articles more accurate and scholarly and cleanse them from the partisan hackery of Mujeerkhan and Street Scholar.
Oh, and yes, the Caste System (actually, several Caste Systems) is alive and well among Muslims in South Asia, Yemen and many other places, as I have sourced and established. Remember Mukhtaran Mai? Do you want me to quote from the Fatwa-i-Jahandari?Hkelkar 09:05, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Further sources are here.Hkelkar 09:28, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, if he has sources to verify his claim, the information rightfully has to be placed there, regardless of what the Quran says. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 15:48, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Ariedartin, You are very distrubtive when it comes to Islam. I see no sense in your "attacks" all over wikipedia. Can you find another hobby please. Palestine48 12:36, 03 November 2006
Rather, I find the accusation of "attacking" Wikipedia disturbing. To you, I now state my aim: I intend to help in developing Wikipedia into a world-class encyclopedia. I refuse to let it degenerate into a mud-slinging battleground, which also completely strays from Wikipedia's policies. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 09:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ramadan mubarak and...

... please check out www.islamiccomics.org my new dawa project ... BYT 15:15, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks bro - and the project was great, keep it up! --Striver 06:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
It's pretty good. I'd also suggest perhaps if it could be available as a flash file and/or as a video file.--JuanMuslim 1m 08:40, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I fail to see the relevance of this to WikiProject Islam. This is for serious discussion of Wikipedia-related issues, not for chit-chat. I'm sorry. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 12:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Active Hindutvavadis

Please see this newly created article on Ziauddin Barrani created changed somehow (even though the editor did not mean to)specifically to prove that he was some sort of Mufti when in reality his second known work Fatawa i Jahandari was a political treatise.Barrani was disenchanted by the government's leniency towards Hindus and local population and if one were to assume that in fact this was a religious fatwa - one wonders if there were any takers of his ideas in conflict with Islam's doctrine.Another fact - he belonged to Shafi School of thought rather than the Hanafi which was the school of thought of the Kings and the local population and would have been difficult for him to have it accpeted by Ulema.Please cleanse this crap based on a singular well meaning research by Yoginder Sikand being distorted by the hydra of Hindutva - the resurgent Hindu fundamentalism.TerryJ-Ho 15:23, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Attack to be reported to admin.Hkelkar 21:09, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Sure, this is a content issue and the way some editors are inadverdently aligning it with the Hindutva point of view needs to be corrected, the claims in that article on Barani giving a religious Fatwa leading to the establsihment of castes among Muslims remain unsubstantiated.TerryJ-Ho 21:25, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Characterizing the motives of users are incivil.Bakaman Bakatalk 23:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, motives taken out TerryJ-Ho 10:36, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Time to Archive

I think it's time for part of this talk page to get archived.--JuanMuslim 1m 07:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I moved former discussions to Archive2.--Sa.vakilian 14:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Gracias, akhi. --JuanMuslim 1m 03:10, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletation of Template:Palestine-stub

Some wikipedians want to delete Template:Palestine-stub. Please write your idea Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion/Log/2006/October/16--Sa.vakilian 18:34, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

While it is listed at TfD, it is a request to rename to a more accurate descriptor, not a request for deletion. TewfikTalk 07:16, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
No Tewfik, it is a request veiled by an Israeli POV and an obvious desire to manipulate further categories in relation to the Palestine stubs (which is happening as we speak). Please stop your anti-Palestine activities.--Palestine48 03:33, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
That smacks in violation of WP:AGF. Do listen constructively to comments and don't hurl ad hominem attacks. Thank you. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 06:20, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
I appreciate your defence Ariedartin - an open attitude and communication are among the most effective methods of building this encyclopaedia [neutrally]. Feel free to approach me if ever any issues arise. Cheers, TewfikTalk 06:48, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I do not direct personal attacks at anyone to divert attention from the issue at hand. I stand by my words: The deletion vote is Israeli motivated and it is aimed at the heart of the Palestine issue. I do not know anyone on wikipedia personally, so all I am responding to is their point of view. Sorry to shatter the dreams of Zionists but Palestine and its people are alive and resisting as they have been for thousands of years. Palestine 14:32, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Please give proof of it being exclusively of a pro-Israeli agenda and not out of good faith of complying with Wikipedia's policies? And do show us how you have come to the conclusion that their point of view is Israeli? Please do so. I am curious. And do refrain from overly political comments. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 07:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

Advicement:I think this page is not appropriate to discuss about pro or non pro-Israeli agenda. Please continue this debate in your talk pages or another place.--Sa.vakilian 12:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portal:Islam

We can make a separate part for Islamic occasions like Eid ul-Fitr and International Day of Quds.--Sa.vakilian 05:33, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Eid Mubarak!

Eid Mubarak! --JuanMuslim 1m 20:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
عيد فطر مبارك و كل عام و أنتم بخير --Palestine48 21:42, 23 October 2006
Please restrict your conversation to English only, thank you. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 06:51, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
If you don't understand! all you need to do is ask. --Palestine48 19:14, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
If we all conversed in English in an English Wikipedia, it would save a lot of asking, amongst other things. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 13:47, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Third holiest site in Islam AfD debate

This article is nominated for deletion Third_holiest_site_in_Islam, but some people who want to question Al-Quds significance in Islam want the article to stay. Please vote for delete.--Palestine48 06:46, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Islam template

Salam. Please contribute to an RFC on the Islam template. Template talk:Islam#RFC--Sa.vakilian 03:05, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] ArDr nom.

I copied it here from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam:

I've nominated Islam at the Article drive. Vote here to support it. Dev920 (check out this proposal) 15:36, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FYI

One of the sub-pages of this project is undergoing an afd: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Islam:The Muslim Guild/Articles for deletion (second nomination) --Striver 17:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of the Qur'an

There is a debate in talk:Qur'an. Please participate in this discussion in talk:Qur'an--Sa.vakilian 16:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Preparation for Improvement

x-posting to the Islamic Wikiprojects. It looks like Islam is going to win the ARCAID on Sunday(and if you haven't voted yet, please do so), so, to coincide with it, I would like to request your help. This Sunday, take a book on Islam from your shelves (or borrow one from your library). It doesn't really matter what book. Then spend a few hours flipping through it and reference Islam. Either reference facts that are already on the article, or add new ones that you find. It doesn't matter how much information gets dumped on the article, we can always move it off into more appropriate articles. Just find a fact, and give a reference. If we all do that, Islam could reach FA by Christmas. Anyone with me on this? Dev920 (check out this proposal) 23:13, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not too sure... Simply dumping content doesn't seem to help improve the article. Like you, I would like to see an article reach Featured Article status, but this is pointless if all we are going to get is an unneccessarily lengthy and clumsy article rather than an informative and stylistic one. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 09:51, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
What I'm saying is, if we add the content, it can then be cleaned up. We cannot cleanup content that does not exist. To my mind, facts are more important than how they are written. People with no knowledge of Islam can easily clean up bad prose, but they cannot write the article itself. What I'm trying to say is, information is important. Every section on Islam has a spinoff article - if one gets too long and detailed, we simply move stuff to the daughter article. That way, many articles are improved. Don't you agree? Dev920 (Please vote here) 10:00, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, I see and I agree. That makes sense. Thank you very much for your explanation. =) Ariedartin JECJY Talk 10:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussing a merger with WikiProject Islam

I know we've discussed a possible merger with Wikiproject Islam before (here) but I feel that there were some heated issues going on at the time that influenced many people's opinions. Again, I'd like to propose that we merge the projects. Because members of the Muslim Guild are already members of WikiProject Islam (since the Muslim Guild is a sub-project of Wikiproject Islam) this merger is simply intended to be an effort to centralize discussion and our efforts to improve Islam-related articles. Right now, I don't really see a purpose behind having a separate Muslim Guild and I believe splitting the project like this is detrimental, if anything. BhaiSaab talk 20:23, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

yes, i agree completely that a merger would be beneficial in allowing better focus and collaborative editing amongst participating editors. ITAQALLAH 20:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
If the Muslim guild, sunni and shia guilds, and the projects that keeps setting up are merged with Wikiproject Islam, I promise I'll join. ;)
On a more serious note, I think it's really important that we are all working in the same place. A lot more would probably be done. Dev920 (Please vote here) 21:38, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I could give a reason to oppose: This project should be renamed to "WikiProject Muslims" and deal with everything related to Muslims, while "WikiProject Islam" keeps with Islam related issues. For example, the 9/11 attacks are not Islam related, but Muslim related, the same goes with the House of Saud. So i would rather have this guild to be renamed to a project. Regarding the merge: If WP:Islam is deleted and this is moved on top of it, i vote conditional support, otherwise, its an oppose and rename. btw, there is not Shi'a and Sunni Guilds, they were renamed some while ago. --Striver 22:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
I would think that a "Wikiproject Muslims" would be so closely related to a Wikiproject Islam that it would be better suited together, even if they do cover slightly different topics. And no, if a merger has consensus, I will not be moving this entire project to WP:Islam. I would move the members list there, and then move any useful information from the Guild's project page to the project page of WP:Islam that isn't already there. So far it seems we have three people for this and one against it. BhaiSaab talk 23:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Hang on, then how is that merging? Everything would still be here. Dev920 (Please vote here) 23:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Make that four in support, 1 against. To reitterate it would be a lot easier for newbies and less active users to quickly acquaint themselves, give ourselves a stronger base and overcome barriers to collaboration. "And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah, and be not divided among yourselves..." Surah Aali-Imraan:V103. Wikipidian 23:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Dev920, I would redirect all pages of this project to WP:Islam, that way we can always look at past revisions should we need anything. BhaiSaab talk 23:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Right, that makes sense. Sorry, I got the impression you wanted to just move important stuff and leave the rest behind as some sort of historicl monument. Dev920 (Please vote here) 10:35, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
I think we can add some part of this guild to wikiproject Islam instead of merge them. Because we need some secondary wikiprojects and guils beside the main one. We can't activate wikiproject by merging these pages because the number of active wikipedians doesn't increase. It may make a better appearance.--Sa.vakilian 03:52, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
"Because we need some secondary wikiprojects and guils beside the main one." Why do we need this one? BhaiSaab talk 04:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Strong support - I don't mind the extra effort involved. Nothing is too little when it comes to making Wikipedia better. Well, except for armageddon. Oh, that article needs improving too. Ariedartin JECJY Talk 16:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
We should think about activating of the project instead of merging the pages. Differentiation is not bad but inattention is bad. "To do list" is here for a while but I don't see anybody pays attention to it.--Sa.vakilian 03:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Striver has agreed to reform all the other Islamic WikiProjects as Taskforces on WikiProject Islam over the course of the next week. Merging the Muslim Guild thus seems most sensible, as we will finally have a unified Wikiproject. Dev920 (Please vote here) 08:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Well it seems we have a six to one agreement here. I will be merging the projects on Friday unless anymore objections are raised. Sa.vakilian, you say that "Differentiation is not bad but inattention is bad." I agree, but the problem is that many project pages are increasingly prone to inattention once you split up a project in so many unnecesary ways as is being done now. BhaiSaab talk 14:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I changed my viewpoint. But let Striver merge Shi'a wikiproject. Thanks.--Sa.vakilian 16:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Great, 7-0 then. Perhaps I'll merge them a little earlier. BhaiSaab talk 16:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

I propose that we make this into a a Muslim task force under the Islam wikitproject that deals with the other Muslims related Task forces (Sholars, salaf, leaders) and such. The membership list can be merged into the WikiProject Membership list. The sub-categories like articles and such can be made into sub-talk pages into of the the main wikiproject. --Striver 17:25, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

While I can understand your desire to turn the other Wikiprojects into taskforces, I cannot understand this one. Why do you wish to add another layer of bureaucracy? Why can't the Wikiproject do it on its own? Dev920 (Please peer review here.) 19:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Ah, never mind, its just my ego talking.. chop it up at throw it to the wolves... it was fun founding it while it lasted... --Striver 19:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
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